GP Needed ? any suggestions

I am afraid no one has come up with an explanation as to how an open public holiday site will work. With only 10% occupancy and no restriction on access, it would seem to be a burglar's paradise.

As the most appalling recent events in Portugal have shown, there are worse people about than just burglars.

Perhaps the officials who decided against the closed site security can be prevailed upon to change their minds.

Does anyone else agree? Does anyone have the ear of the developer? All my attempts at contact are unanswered. The only contact I get is threats from their lawyers.

It would appear the purchasers on Casares Del Sol Suites also believed the sales pitch and to what size their apts would be.

The sizes advertised are:  Accomodation 89.75 sqm    Terrace  31.03sqm     Total 120.78 sqm

I was over there a few weeks ago and took the opportunity to walk onto that complex during one of Spains Bank Holidays (whilst the security guards were asleep) and actually measured some of the apts in block 6 on the CDSS map. All the 2 beds are the same design and having checked out 4-5 to get a feel of size of which they were identical, picked one to measure. The real size of the apt as we would like to look at it, i.e the overall measurements from one end of the apt to the other including the internal walls are way below what they are advertising. Measuring all the rooms, halls, wardrobes, bathrooms etc, ie the "living areas" it came to just under 60 sq metres with the brochures stating 89.75 sqm. That is 30sqm less than advertised!  That makes the communal areas very expensive. The terrace measured 21 sqm against 31 in the brochure. The crazy thing is if you scale it of their own brochure it comes out even less!

There were guys who bought on CDDS who were telling us they were getting a far superior development to CDS and wouldnt listen to the warnings we were trying to give them about Interlaken. A few of us from CDS were trying to give them the knowledge of what we learned on CDS to make them proactive and not reactive. The whole point of this website is to share experiences for the benefit of all. I remember my last posting on their site many months ago stating something like, "we are only trying to give you the benefit of our experience, if you choose to bury your heads in the sand so be it"  (No pun intended Norman!)

Ian

 

Well done Ian, are the blindfolds off at last; is at least one head out of the sand? Will you tell Emma before it’s too late?

I am truly astonished at the number of highly intelligent people who refuse to recognise or even consider the facts of the appalling confidence trick that has been practiced here.

I too have tried to investigate the much trumpeted Arsenal due diligence nonsense and it seems that it is just as easy to con "Arsenal Football Club", whatever that is, as it is to totally con our multiple heavily qualified buyers on this site.

My brochure came hot foot from Malaysia and it wasn't long before I noted that "Arsenal" completely disassociated itself from Interlaken and advised prospective buyers to seek professional advice. Which with the woeful (I personally would say criminal) standard of professional advice from agents and lawyers on the Costa del Sol is surely tongue in cheek advice.

What did you think of the rest of the dream, the totally fantasy projected rentals, also heavily qualified.

Where was the reference to the latest bombshell the necessary LICENCE TO LET which the tourist authority will not give, except very exceptionally.

I have again consulted my friends who have been letting for years in the area with this advice:-

“ It was only a matter of time before all of this would come on strong via the authorities!! We had our villa all set up kosha by our gestor and we paid tax on the lets so we knew we were safe, but I know of many folk who have just swanned along hoping it will all be OK. I have known for some time that the tax folk have been looking at websites and then checking for tax \returns!!!”

In view of this and the swingeing fines involved I can only review my “street value” downwards. I now consider these shoddy apartments worth 35% of the asking price.

This message was last edited by normansands on 5/19/2007.

Norman

We never had the benefit of the advice Pueblo Golf/CDDS are getting from us at CDS. Even after all the effort from purchasers at CDS they at CDDS/Pueblo Golf still choose to ignore it, that is the point i was making. They still had the opportunity to back out before putting more money down but chose to ignore the advice as many at that point had only paid the initial deposit.

We know we have been decieved by small print or even lack of it but still have the opportunity to get it right and develope the complex to the way we want as a community, and many owners are actively putting in the effort to achieve this. We did not have the benefit of information CDDS are getting.

We thought our apts were smaller than advertised at 10sqm but theirs are 30sqm smaller than brochured and we told them to examine their contracts very carefully and in particular the size of their apts and this was was good advice that was totally ignored.

Its one thing to be duped into buying a product you dont get but to be told you wont get it by many people who have been duped previously and still go ahead is total stupidity.

Ian 

Ian,

Thank you for the clarification and all strength to your elbow in making the best of things, I only wish I could contribute to your good works. Though you still mystify me with your view of a "community" and what it can do, what are you planning? This is supposed to be a holiday complex, isn't it? Freely available for letting to holidaymakers surely???

However I am afraid it really doesn't comfort me one jot to be advised that there are bigger idiots than me investing in the area. If you have told them directly and been ignored then your assessment must be correct, or alternatively this area/their site is such an obvious future goldmine that price/metre/quality is irrelevant.

My penthouse has still not received any attention of any kind, perhaps I should advertise on the Arsenal site.

I am now told that Chartered Surveyors do not exist in Spain, therefore their reports are not useful evidence, but Chartered Engineers are OK. I paid for a valuation organised by the bank, presumably professional by the fee charged, but am suspicious of the meterage and do not believe it was measured. I am not even sure that the apartment was even visited. Have you had any professional confirmation of property area? Is your assessment of a 10 sq m shortage based on your own/group measurements and did anyone measure a 3 bed penthouse? My own surveyor dismissed it as small and pokey with no measurements made - it just did not fit the false sales description.

Thanks again for your contributions - greatly valued.

Norman

 

 

The 10 sqm shortage is based on actual measurements in my apartment and it appears to be similar to quite a few people i have contacted who have physically checked theirs too. (I measured my own apt and If people dont already know i am in the building industry) The meterage is something i am still discussing with my lawyer with a view to a claim against interlaken.

Essentially i would have thought most people bought on CDS to use as a holiday home with a view to occasional renting to help with a mortgage or running costs. The owners of apts on CDS would automatically have to form a community and therefore would have an active involvement in how the complex would be run in the future. All the owners can get together to create the invironment that we desire regardless of what IL have given us. What they have failed to give us, once organised, we could persue through the legal system via administrators so dont think for one minute IL are in the clear. In the meantime we take control of our development.

With regard to the penthouses i believe they are the same size as the 2 bed apts apart from the 3rd bedroom if they have one, so i would assume at least 10sqm short of advertised size.

(I am refering here to the actual living areas.)

Ian

This message was last edited by Ianmack on 5/19/2007.

Ian,

thank you but what is your contract meterage?

Even casual letting would seem to breach the tourist regulations, as the Sunday Telegraph example showed, the fine bore no relation to the earned income, it wasn't a tax authority fine.

This site does not unfortunately reach enough buyers, also there seems to be very little activity at all on the Arsenal posting. It may be that your advice fell on no ears at all, rather than deaf ears. You may also be underestimating the number of investors/flippers on this site who would naturally not be very interested in the "community" other than the fees.

With all that you knew I find it surprising that you decided to complete with the hope of compensation later, that seems to me to be more than optomistic.

However all the very best to you and I hope others may benefit from our public interchange.

Norman

 

I agree fully with Ianmack - those who have completed know that by taking control through the Community we can create a satisfactory environment while doing what we can to force IL to put right defects and shortcomings. The reality is that this area is going to take 1-2 years to reach its potential. The new Finca Cortesin golf course next door is as good as the best on the Costa and completion of the Aparthotel and commercial centre will help the place as a holiday option. For those who want to flip the contract, this is no use but that is more to do with the market which is gone for the present. For us as owners the priority is to take control through effective administrator and manage the site towards what we want it to be. That way we can expect capital appreciation over the medium term.

I am afraid that I cannot comprehend the logic of completing on a contract to purchase something which is incomplete and with serious shortcomings. How could you persuade anyone to do that?? What lawyer would allow his client to do that??

The only possibility that I can envisage is a secondary contract that gave a cast iron guarantee that the balance would be provided within strict time limits.

I am sorry to say that after completion on a contract without an enforceable secondary contract in place, then all talk of forcing Interlaken (is it even Interlaken you would be dealing with) to do anything at all is frankly "cloud cuckoo land". Sorry but surely we/you have to be realistic don't we??

As to the necessary demolition and rebuild to correct size and standards - the most you could hope for I think, would be a developer buy back.

From current information on the market and prospects of profit, I consider it will take ten years of normal inflation for purchase price costs to be equalled.

The other matter that concerns me greatly is the extravagant expectations that are expected from Community control. This is, as pointed out by Maria, not just desirable but essential. It seems to me that there is really nothing in the "investment" kitty to cover any more waste. However a holiday site with a 10% occupancy is not a fertile ground for finding the right people to put time and effort into running things. A couple of accountants offering to take the accounts on board is just the beginning.

We do things on the small estate here in England, but find it essential to employ agents and even with 100% occupancy, recruiting residents for unpaid, largely unthanked, work is not easy. Again I applaud your efforts but you need to do more and quickly. Though once again I consider all talk of the community taking on major works like providing Leisure Centre facilities etc. is once again cuckoo land, unless owners are seriously interested in adding substantially to their investment. Though I do think it is rather late to turn this into a self-build project.

The very best of luck to everyone and has anyone measured a 3 bed penthouse?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Norman

Contract size of Apt 92sqm   (Actual 82sqm)

To avoid losing the dep on the apt the advice was to complete on date agreed (ie as and when snagging complete) and to take on the litigation later. This was the advice from quite a few lawyers we contacted after we discovered the shortages and this due to the length of time this case would take.

I dont believe building a leisure centre is on our agenda. Finca Cortisin are building a sports complex that we could use and this would be bigger and better than the proposed one at CDS.

Wasnt the Telegraph article and subsequent ruling only relating to Majorca?

Ian

This message was last edited by Ianmack on 5/20/2007.

Agreed. Again my understanding is that I was obliged to complete once my apartment was ready and snagged even though the site issues remained. I reckoned our apartment was undersized but the developer has wriggle room because of inclusion od public areas. The community has rights to insist on getting the siteworks completed and I am in favour of getting professional advice to force IL to make good site defects. However an individual owner has limited ability and may put deposit at risk if they decide to stall on completion.

This message was last edited by normansands on 5/20/2007.

It is amazing what the Spanish property sales people would ask us to believe!!!

This is what Maria says:-

 

mariadecastro Apartamento Location: Algeciras (Cadiz) Posts: 96

1) At what point does a breach of contract occur by the developer. Our Contract has a deadline date of 31 March 2007. Does this mean that the apartment we are buying must be completed and habitation license in place by this date or does the license not need to be in place by this date? It needs to be completed and habitation license in place 2)  For the license to be issued does the whole develpment need to be finished e.g swimming pools, roads, all apartments, public lighting etc. or can the license be issued on one phase alone? A license can be issued on one phase alone, but it doesn´t mean that you obligatorily need to accept that the contract is fulfilled , thay have met all their obligations and you have to complete. They need to hand over all what is stated not just in the contract but also in the publicity brochures 3) Our bank guantee  appears to run out 1 month after the deadline date in the developers contract (30 April 2007). Is this the norm and am I right in assumming therefore that if the developer doesn't hit the 31 March deadline we only have a month to get our month back? You have got  a right ( if you freely and explicitly  decide to grant an extension to developer) to ask for a renovation/extension of the bank guarantee as well. 4) How do we know if the developer has hit the 31 March deadline? Do we have to physically be there to see for ourselves or is there some sort of sign off that the developer has to provide? Completion needs to be before 31 in March. You need to be appointed to signing of deeds before that date. _______________________

 

05 Feb 2007 5:48 PM mariadecastro Apartamento Location: Algeciras (Cadiz) Posts: 96

Dear Gill: If you haven´t been notified for completion on the date the contract states,  they are in breach of contract and you can ask for cancellation. Of course, they can oppose that it is due to force majeure that they are not completing, but this, according to what the Supreme Courts´law of precedent   states needs to be both expressly notified in anticipation to the other party  and  also expressly accepted by you. A different thing it is that the commun practice doesn´t follow this and consumers are unde abusive practices. ALso it will of course depend on how firm and strong you and your lawyer fight for your rights. I am compeltely sure ( by theory and practice) on what I am saying. Best regards, Maria L. de Castro _______________________ Maria L. de Castro Lawyer www.costaluzlawyers.es

 

mariadecastro Apartamento Location: Algeciras (Cadiz) Posts: 96

That  three months authomatic extension is not legal. Again, it needs to be justified, notified, accepted... You can ask for cancellation once the specific  contractual deadline arrives and if you are willing to, I very much advise you to do it as soon as the completion deadline stated in the contract arrives. Therefore developers will be formally forced to justify, communicate and you can be opossing or accepting any of their " reasons". Go ahead first. There are some practices of developers by which they mention in the contract a period of just 15 days after the completion deadline of the contract for you to ask for cancellation, once it has passed they understand that you, implicity, agrees on extending the contract as much as they need. Abusive= illegal. _______________________ Maria L. de Castro Lawyer www.costaluzlawyers.es

 

28 Feb 2007 10:39 AM mariadecastro Apartamento Location: Algeciras (Cadiz) Posts: 96

That´s it. You need to have good legal advice in the consumers´side, which is not very frequent in the real estate field ( even when Laws and Courts are getting more and more protective to buyers )  and fight hard with clear understanding of your position and rights. The bilateralism of contracts is  an essential  principle and any clause against or dismissing this can be invoked as abusive and therefore null and void.  Therefore if there are specific time clauses for the buyers´obligations, it needs to be specific time clauses for the seller. http://www.costaluzlawyers.es/eng/?p=25   FInd below an example of Court decission stating that the inprecise completion date is abusive ane therefore null and void .This sort of decissions, together with Consumers Law ( national and european) and general priciples of Law and provisions contained in book 4 title 2 of the Civil Code make a strong deffense against those imprecise essential terms of the contract: AP Madrid, sec. 25ª, S 10-11-2004, nº613/2004, rec.633/2003. Pte: Guglieri Vázquez, José María Happy Andalucia day! M. _______________________ Maria L. de Castro Lawyer www.costaluzlawyers.es

 I am afraid she has also confirmed that the licence from the Tourist Authority is required throughout Spain. She seems to be a gem.

Norman

LICENCE TO LET

Maria also says:-

25 Feb 2007 9:15 AM mariadecastro Ático Location: Algeciras (Cadiz) Posts: 100

Yes, you have to declare your property before the COnsejeria de Turismo of your Autonomous community to be a legal touristic unit. Fines can be imposd if rented without license. Also, www.registradores.org has access to not registered people, there is an english version and you can pay by credit card ( on nota simple is around 9 euros).   Best,   M. _______________________ Maria L. de Castro Lawyer www.costaluzlawyers.es

 

Been away for weekend, otherwise would probably have contributed to this earlier.

Ian / Norman - re apartment sizes, I have read somewhere (can't remember whether EOS or one of my many books!) that whilst in UK we go by internal measurements, in Spain they talk about external measurements.

If my apartment is smaller than it says in the contract, I'm not that bothered, I like the apartment as it is, and usually have more important issues to deal with in my life than 10sq m. However, if enough owners on the site were prepared to contribute towards a leagl battle with Interlaken after completion, then I would certainly consider joining that, but I would want a fixed amount to be put in and no more, ie not an endless trickle of money going to a Spanish lawyer. As a community after completion, we would have the benefit of spreading the high legal costs over lots of people, therefore not too expensive for each owner. However, are you aware that not all contracts are with Interlaken? ie some properties were sold by Interlaken to agents who sold them on? So generally one can only take legal action against the other party in the contract - so as a group we would be taking action against Interlaken plus a number of agents.

The point of a legal action would not be to rebuild the properties, obviously, but to get financial compensation. Eg if you thought you were buying 92sq metres at £x per  sq metre but in fact you got 82 sq metres at £x per sq metre, your compensation would be 10 times £x. So the £10x would need to be significantly higher than the cost of a legal action to make it worth while. (Obviously it would be Euros not £!!)

And I STILL say, in a couple of years this will be a fantastic place, when I was there in April, a few supplier-type people said it was one of the better sites in the area. Andrew had a day trip last week and drove round a few other sites nearby and thought ours had the potential to be much better than any he saw.

I  totally agree with everything ef says below. The immediate priorities are to get the pool areas 'snagged' and useable for the summer and the gardens tidied up. Realistically many of the garden areas are not going to look much until 2008.

I have some limited knowledge of the law here and though you may be able to use one lawyer, each contract is individual and any prosecution would have to be individual, though once one was dealt with others could follow on perhaps a rubber stamp basis.

But it defies intelligence to suggest you can claim after having completed, the act of completion itself is based upon the contract being fulfilled.

I can only imagine a late claim being made on some matter that you could not have reasonably discovered beforehand - something hidden. Possibly the low strength poor quality structural concrete revealing itself - a partial collapse perhaps. It would need to be something severe and fundamental - not just snagging.

Should you have discovered and known of missing elements or substandard elements, you should not have completed until some recognition of this was agreed between the parties - compensation - part compensation - monies retained for payment later etc.

Surely this is only common sense, even in Spain.

You may have, like me, been totally duped by agent/agents, developer, lawyer, habitation licence, bank valuation etc. plus of course the self weakness of natural gullibility and the dreaded assumption, but there really isn't any point in adding to this by deluding yourself with dreams of compensation later without effort and expense. Expense that, as Emma says, might be better spent elsewhere to improve market value.

However I can see little point in spending huge, or indeed any, resources and effort in achieving Emma's dream of a beautiful, standard residential, open, public, complex of small apartments  unless there is a market for the finished product. I may be a virgin investor but I still need some sort of market return, not a bottomless pit to squander my pension into whilst I starve.

Though I do wonder who we are going to let to when all is done if there is no LICENCE TO LET.

Norman

 

 

 

 

This message was last edited by normansands on 5/21/2007.

Hello to all,

Re the requirement for the "licence to let" debate - I received the following back from my rental agent, but have decided to consult my lawyer directly too as my husband says he's heard of British people renting out their apartment in Marbella being fined.  I'll post the reply on receipt.

"Many people have asked this question following an article in a UK Sunday
paper looking to create headlines.

Firstly this license mentioned does not apply to long term rental
accommodation which is actively being encouraged by the Spanish
government due to a lack of such accommodation in Spain.

It does however apply to short term holiday property but only in the
Balearic Islands.

This is not current legislation on the main land and is not something we
or our lawyers see becoming legislation in the near future.

I hope this clears up any worries that this little researched article
may have caused.

Best regards"

It's all a bit of a minefield isn't it? and most certainly a very steep learning curve!

Hello CanCan,

thank you for your input but to avoid confusion can I ask you to edit your posting out of this thread and into the LICENCE TO LET thread where it would seem to fit exactly. Sorry for any inconvenience

Norman

Have you not read Justin's EOS newsletter this morning - it's all a storm in a teacup according to him, does not relate to the mainland after all! Just journalists short of something to write about?