11 Apr 2021 10:27 AM:

Since January 2015 UK Government (employment) pensions are decarable for setting the % rate on residual income - but not directly taxable in Spain (ha, ha:  in a way they are  - indirectly )  Well, it is not working in a uniform way across Spain. I have been severely penalised for 2014 (Almeria) - a year when these pensions were not even declarable - I tried  telling Tributaria, or even HMRC !!

* does the tax consultant have the latest software ?

* is box 470 the correct box and does it have to be selected from the database and inserted into the modelo100 form?  (verifiable answers would help everyone - I am still confused by different answers of several 'experts' )

* have these pensions been muddled by experts and denoted as a UK Pension Annuity - which IS taxable, and in my case I think that is what happened.  

* Watch out !!!!! scrutiny of HMRC records on submission of Renta 2021 listing the 2020 income will also focus on 2016 ( the now notorious 4 year catch up with ujnfettered access to HMRC records - as Uk is now a 3rd Country ) -- so --- as well as completing the Renta 2021 ----- advise to review 2016 with the agency who completed the 2016 return.

Many use the term Crown Pension  -  the UK pensions involved,for (hopefully) box 470, as well as the (Crown) - Civil Service, are Armed Forces, Police, Fire, Teachers, Local Government and some NHS workers but not nurses.

Final point -- did anyone look at the wording of Article 18.1 UK, and Articulo 18.1 Spanish language with the Tributaria english translation - they are different in words and meaning. Articulo 18.1 is really only for Spansih Civil Service. Put you Uk government pension in that CIVIL SERVICE box and it could be rejected, as, on scrutiny they will not find Little Puddleton Town Council listed !!!   

good luck everyone. Answers expected - or perhaps not ?   Ian

Thread: UK CROWN PENSION TO BE DECLARED IN SPAIN THIS YEAR

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28 Feb 2020 11:03 AM:

In reply to ads of 27/2/20 -  Your 1st para points in the correct direction -  from the outset the Article 18 (Government Service Pensions)  should have had attached, a protocol to completely remove any chance of ignorance or abuse on the part of those implementing these tax returns in Spain, through 17 autonomous comunities, 52 provinces and who knows how many local AEAT offices, which collect tax and keep a % before remitting remainder to Madrid. (not administered quite like HMRC)  

At the time the protocol suggested to HMRC ( without any response) was

a.  a list from the HMRC manual, of Gov pension providers, (or a link to the web site)

b. the agreed formula for declaring the gross amount  and calculating the net amount for progressive taxation by AEAT (ie. take the gross Gov pension annual amount, enable a 'box' to identify this amount as 'UKtaxpaid' , for the gross to have the otherwise appropriate tax deduction removed, within the on line system, and the net amount remaining, added to any other world wide income due for taxation in Spain at the aprrproriate - probably higher - %rate) ( to enable transparency and a record for the individual in hard copy)

Nowhere can I see any attempt to regularise this - consequently it looks as though the Article 18 gross amount IS being added to other income, by one or more AEAT offices.

Irritating point might be those  critics who may believe there is a resentment about paying tax. NO - resident  in the UK these PAYE pension provider payroll operations would have added notification of the UK state pension, and deducted tax at 20% above the threshold (usually by lowering the tax code) Oh - yes - dont forget contracted out deductions are taken from the UK state pension for those in receipt of Government Service Pensions ( mine is reduced by £45 per week.)

Stability in tax is important for pensioners, and lately AEAT has thrown up an unwanted and avoidable glitch, we may say originates from misunderstandings within the DTT itself.  One doubts whether HMRC can introduce or update any protocol, or, publish any formula under Article 18 for dealing with these pensions, but one can make representation and I will do so - alone it seems - as I cannot find any representative  group making noises of this kind.

Thread: Where should tax be paid UK or Spain ?

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27 Feb 2020 5:14 PM:

IN reply to the 2 posts today: 27.2.20.

I know of no complaints mechanism - except perhaps - pursuing an issue right up to the EU Court - would take years. 

About the P60 - sorry to make assumptions:

a. HMRC has a list of applicable Government Service Pensions on its web site, applicable to this Treaty. The one shown on your post should be listed - that is how AEAT should be able to work it out  .............however !

b. The on line submissions denoting P60 information are one thing -  I assumed AEAT would accept what the accountant had inputted - the other is that AEAT does not actually see the P60 - (except on appeal) and nowhere on the online form does there appear to be a place to state the pension provider ! Please tell me there is ? and - the box number? 

And I forgot to mention that my (local Government) pension provider, changed its name and logo combining several Fire/local gov/ teachers etc into one entity - how helpful was that ? 

Note: If anything useful comes out of my meeting with the Whitehall gurus next week - I will offer some more info. I am actually asking them what they said to AEAT, which stimulated AEAT to penalise me. I guess they will plead data protection and politely decline to answer.

And- this is only one aspect of a widespread treaty, so guess there are problems in other areas. 

Thread: Where should tax be paid UK or Spain ?

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27 Feb 2020 1:24 PM:

Beiderbeck is replying to posts having a view on this.

In reply :  the autonomous communities operate  - in their own way regardng taxreturns. In Almeria province of Almeria they are inflexible, almost brutal in their refusal to even acknowledge problems with this Treaty, which for Article 18 is problematic. There is no defintion in the protocol as to Withholding tax, deductable from 2014, nor tax on income, taxbble from 2015.     My tax returns were all in order, but I had no replies ot the many questions I raised at the time about the position government service pensions were in ,nor if the 'boxes' and caculations in the on line form were ready for the first declaration. Mine was declared  from 1 Jan 2015 - THEY say - I have evaded tax and that I should have listed it as a witholding tax, decarable from June12 2014. THEY have taken 2180 from my account only regarding that 6 month period, in what is described as a 'four year catch up '

THEY say this will continue year by year until the catch up ends. So, HMRC appear to have had an interaction which has been interpretted incorrectly. 

Bearing in mind - the English language version of this Treaty differs from the la Moncola boletin - check it out ! The HMRC preamble, does not have a reciprocal explanatioon in Spanish either !

I am speaking to HMRC, complaints /Treaty Team Managers next week about this, but at present I see no good outcome of this problem, for me and any others involved.  Bear in mind - the AUTONOMUS comMMUNITIES CollECT THE TAX, and keep up to 50% before sending the rest  on to Mdrid - so imagine what enthusiasm there would be for reposnding to an appeal, which has to be in Spansih, with all the supporting documents translated, to both the autonomous community and Madrid - pensioners thus affected   will be long gone before this is resolved.  

PS = my P60 does denote the government authority - so that should not be a problem - but Spain says a P60 is a list of tax due - not tax paid - (nonsense of course) 

Thread: Where should tax be paid UK or Spain ?

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26 Feb 2020 7:08 PM:

So -  here we are in 2020, with the 2019 tax return revealing Government Service Pension (Article 18) has been taxed as a witholding tax, from June 12 2014 - resulting in Fiscal Evasion charge, fine interest and 2000 euros taken from the bank account. In reply to the appeal AEAT say 'P60 is a notification of UK tax due - not tax paid'  (nonsense) but there is an absolutely hostile response to any appeal. Have been told to claim the tax paid back from HMRC, if I think I paid it.

Personally I wonder if the on line forms were updated to receive the information provided by accountants at the on date of this new treaty - for Article 18 pensions this should have been fiscal year 2015- completed in 2016.  If the box aint there the info provided to the accountant cannot be entered. My problem apparently was revealed by interaction between AEAT and HMRC - especially checking on UK Gov pensioners living in Spain.  Strangely I cannot find any other pensioner with this problem. (why?)

Thread: Where should tax be paid UK or Spain ?

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