Hello again

Hi there.

 

I just got this disheartening news from my solicitor.....  essentially no news on m11 and MAsa can wait forever if they want by just blaming 'reasons beyond the control of the Vendor'

Ah well, whats another year?

Dear Jason,   I have been informed by MASA and Grupomasa that unfortunately there is only confirmation for the handover of the polygons M-13, M-14, M-15 y M-16, and they say they will keep us informed of the confirmation of the handover of the rest of Polygons. I have been checking your contract, I copy literally:   "The property object of the present contract will be completed during the 2º TRIMESTRE 2007, being delivered once it is completely finished. Should any of the agreed installments be un-fullfilled, for reasons beyond the control of the Vendor, said installments will be automatically extended, until the inconveniences that stopped the delivery of the property are solved."   Therefore, it is possible that they may have delays for administratives reasons, as I explained in my previous e-mail, because the building company has not obtained the First Occupation License for your house yet. As I explained, since July 2007 under Spanish Law it is not possible to occupy the property or being delivered the property without this License, a copy of which we have already applied for.   We are trying to fix a definite completion date and we will keep on trying it, and do not hesitate you will be informed of it. If they don't fullfill the contract you can be sure that we will protect your rights and we will send a legal request.   I'm on the case and I will let you know any news.   Regards,
Gema Sánchez Traductor Jurado / Sworn Translator Dpto. Legal / Legal Dept.

Thanks Jason.  Your solicitor's comments on the First Occupation License are very interesting:

 'since July 2007 under Spanish Law it is not possible to occupy the property or being delivered the property without this License,'

I've read lots about why you shouldn't complete without it, and lots of people's answers with reasons why they're ignoring it and completing without it, but i had no idea there was a new law about it !

I haven't heard of anyone having the license yet.  How can they release any polygons without it ?  This could be a reson why Masa put people into hotels?  Does it mean that anyone who has completed has no legal right to occupy their homes? 

It just gets better all the time!

Not just since 2007 but this has always been the case in Spain but only recently, after an incident in The Canary Islands, has the law been looked at

According to the law owners are squatting in their own properties and there can be issues with insurance

Lots of banks and rental companys will not touch properties without a Certificate

Locally there was a recently published article where a renter had an accident in the property and the claim was not honoured as there was no Certificate pf Habitation for the property

The insurance company ruled that without the Licence the property should not have been occupied or rented out and therefore they cancelled the claim and the insurance

It is refreshing to see a lawyer advising people on these matters as most, perhaps beacuse of their relationship with the builder or agent

Why would anybody complete without being able to get water and electricity connected and it still remains a legal requirement for the builder to supply these, free of charge, if there is no Certificate of Habitation issued

For anyone interested here is my lates reply from my solicitor....

 

Dear Jason,   I am afraid the definite connection of electricity in your house does not depend on the electricity company. They cannot do nothing until Grupomasa obtains the First Occupation License, which has to be applied in the Town Hall. So it depends on the time it takes for the Town Hall to issue this Certificate or License. What I mean is that the electricity company cannot commit to any dates at all. I will contact Grupomasa today again so that they remember your case and send me a copy of the First Occupation Certificate as soon as they get it. I will try to get as much information from them as I can and I will of course keep you informed of any news.   Regards,
Gema Sánchez Traductor Jurado / Sworn Translator Dpto. Legal / Legal Dept.

Thanks for the info Jason.  Hope it gets sorted soon.

best wishes.

I have bought through atlas and the confusion regarding licencing has cost me 90000       euro Atlas potential cutomers should take extreem care before signing as they Atlas  wll NOT point out any potential problems with the contract     and when the wheel falls off thay are as much use as a chocolate fireguard. Atlas cursomers should be very very carefull before continuing. The war has begun dont be caught out like me.

Izzyinn

I don't think the individual estate agents make a lot of difference.  We bought through Luz del Sol in Kent and I have received absolutely no help or advice from them at all.  It it wasn't for this site, I wouldn't have a clue what was going on.  The one time I suggested we should have a refund on all monies paid because of delays etc etc, they weren't the slightest bit interested.

hi izzyinn, sorry to hear about your situation.  As Rosemary says, the agents don't know much about what's going on.  It's the developer Procomar Grupo Masa that has us all over a barrel.  EOS is the ONLY place we get any info from, and we're very grateful to other members who pass it on as soon as they hear it.  My agent gets nowhere with Masa.  He's a small local agent, very trustworthy and hard working, and I don't blame him for this mess - Masa are a law to themselves.   I hope your situation is sorted soon. Best wishes. 

hi izzeinn depest sympathy we used atlas too what a bunch of w*****rs when we started with them on buying trip they were brill but god it went down hill fast the midd term dept is dyer but wait for moving in dept they make hidey high and fawlty towers look like docu drama they are all parttimers who dont talk to each other so nothing is followed up it makes gordon brown look like primeminister sorry wife says he is are well.we tried to pull out and they threatend us with 4 year court battle and loseing all our money villa and more besides i woudnt spit on them if they where on fire but hey i bet some of you out there thoght old mrs thatcher was a really nice person too but enough keep well away there crap

Hi all

I thought there was only us who felt this bad. We can't believe that the legal system allows this to happen. We are even confused about who we are actually dealing with, who is Procobar, who is Grupo Masa and at the end of the day who is legally responsible.

The law seems to say one thing, the builders and developers ignore.  We hear what Inspectahome are saying and everything seems straightforward, but is anyone actually challenging the system.

With regard to Atlas and the other big 'sellers' perhaps we should all send the Dorking and the Torrievieja office, letters and emails and actually start bouycotting their sales events and publicising how bad they are, perhaps when it hits their pockets they might do something about it.  We bought in Oct 06, were rushed out there in February for mid visit to open bank account, NIE number and chose additional furniture etc then powwwwwwwwwwww don't want to know. House was ready when we bought, saw before we bought but still no different than buying off plan.  Only glad we didn't shell out for all the expensive extras they tried to sell us on the visit.

We keep thinking the people who put these jokey messages on this site just want to be out there because they have sold up etc. but perhaps they are all like us unable to do anything. Been there, got the tee shirt and been ignored and unsupported by the legal system.

R and G

Unfortunately what you are experiencing is very common in Spain but to explain Masa are the promoter who agree to develop the properties and then promote these to the agents such as Atlas

Behind the promoter will be the actual builder, the compant that actually constructs and has ultimate leal responsibility for the development

The person that should be helping you resove the issues and advising on your rights are the lawyers but the problem here is that, if thet are not totally independant of the buolder or agent they will not be very forthcoming with information.

Spanish lawyers operate on what we call the law of disclosure, if you do not ask them the right questions, the they don't have to give you the information

Going to the agents like Atlas will get you nowhere and the lawyer is key to the whole process, if they won't help change them

I cannot understand why more people are not demanding their LEGAL RIGHTS, the rights are that if ther is no Certificate of Habitation, and you have completed on the property, they have to provide, at no cost to the owners, water & electricity known as builders supply

As far as the completion an snagging process is conecerned you should

• Not complete without a Certificate of Habitation
• Inspect the property prior to completion
• If the property has any significant defects refuse to complete
• Have the snagging list included in the legak pack signed by all parties at the Notary

If anybody wants a bguide to the process or DIY guides please e-mail sg@inspectahomespain.com

 

Masa split into 2 companies years ago.  Masa International are agents and promoters - selling properties.  Procobar S.A. is the Spanish registered company name for Grupo MASA as the builder/developer.

Our purchase contracts at SG are with Procobar S.A.  regardless of which agent sold the property.

Maria de Castro (very helpful lawyer who contributes to this EOS site) has reviewed these contracts and confirmed there is a clear legal case for full refund of deposits paid.  Our lawyers - independent of agent and developer  - pushed Grupo MASA (ie Procbar SA) on this last year.  It is Grupo MASA (Procobar) who refused to play ball and said take us to court.  Even the sum of money to be paid to the court to open the case was in the thousands of euros. 

Maria has also said that if we choose to complete, the contract gives a clear legal case for compensation for the delay in completion.   We decided the stress and financial cost was too much and decided to wait until completion.   Using the legal route will cost people more time, money and stress, which most of us can ill afford.  MASA know this and are getting away with blue murder.

 

Izzy here. be afraid, be very afraid if you have paid anything getting it back is a nightmare. atlas would have you believe all is safe with your money. Nothing could be further from the truth if it starts to go wrong. When you sign you are legaly bound but in the contract it states that any delay on the builders part only starts when he is granted a habitation certificate which can be any time in the future that suits him. meanwhile you wait. we bought according to atlas KEY READY we assumed the builder had the nessassary paperwork in place as we only had to wait 2 months 9 months later 100000 euro poorer we want to pull out but find we will be in breach of contract. Atlas told us we would recieve compensation but it will never come and i believe they knew that from the start but they will tell you anything to get you to sign. This is a brief note but if you require anymore information call me 697866869 Spanish mobile

Hi izzy

That's awful for you.  It sounds like we have different contracts.  Ours was the original back in early 2004, and says nothing about habitation certificates.  It also sounds as if atlas knew it wasn't key ready and knew Masa would fight any repayment (as they did with us - see below).   I'm hoping that as some people are now getting the habitation licences that Mug could be right in his earlier post, that the electric is a squabble between masa and electric company, and things could get connected soon.  Hope you eventually get it sorted.  Best wishes.

Thanks for the response, My campaign has begun, the only way I know how, you may see me at airports hotels even resturants frequented by ATlAS customers. I feel its time potential customers are made even more aware of the problems than they were before. Atlas have now said they will look into the problem but if the past is anything to go on i will still be waiting this time next year. Their response since i started 2 days ago was startling, jane from customer services actually rang me (theres a first normaly she only returns calls well sometimes) within min of me being parked at a hotel promising to talk to her boss then nothing ....... perhaps she thinks i will go away......................................WRONG  Regards IZZY Watch this space

Good luck Izzy, I think it is the only way. Make people aware that the agents do not have the customers interests at heart and once they have your signature (and deposit) theyre not bothered.  I will be looking out for Exhibitions in the UK that I might be able to visit. I cringe every time I see or hear an advert for homes abroad. 

We had our monthly courtesy UPDATE from Atlas recently - only thing missing was any update - it is a standard email that tells us how they have our best interest at heart - NOooooooooooooooooooooooo and there has been no update on the My Atlas member site either since June 07, they say they don't provide any updates on the site once your property is ready. Our property was built when we put our deposit on in Oct 06, only needed drive and garden walls.

So Atlas are quite happy just to sell to you and then forget all about it.  They all know what is going on, I can't believe they don't, from the Directors of Atlas over here in England to all the representative, mid visit team, moving in team, after sales etc.  They all realise something is not right, yet every time we visit SG, - and we have been 5 times this year, - there are reps from Atlas still showing people round.

R and G

This message was last edited by RangSG on 12/6/2007.

Further to the comments of Rang SG

I think that once you sign on the dotted line for the agent, they then have their commission from the parent company and you are

no longer of much use to them so all the promises turn to dust!

IZZY, good luck with your crusade!

HELL HATH NO FURY LIKE AN IZZY SCORNED!!

Regards

Nigel & Stella