What do we really think about Spanish estate agents?

I think its important to gain perhaps a consensus on what experiences individual buyers have had with Estate Agents in spain good and bad experiences please.

I thought it appropriate as an agent recently has questioned my opinion of there services

Thanks Rod

Having bought a number of properties in Spain from both English and Spanish Estate Agents, I can honestly say that in my opinion the nationality isn't  that much of an issue. I find that there are honest and dishonest Agents out there of all nationalities and the only way you can protect yourself against the cowboys is to ask for testimonials or recommendations locally (and on Forums !) and to look into Professional acreditations and associations. Above all trust your instincts.

Tombit

I didnt mention nationality in my thread but thanks for your reply

Rod

The thread was titled   "WHAT DO WE REALLY THIK ABOUT SPANISH ESTATE AGENTS"

... If not Nationality, then what did you expect us to think you meant by including the word 'Spanish' ...?

Not sure anyone can answer this in any way that makes any real sense.

In every profession or field of work there are good and bad people.  Not every lawyer is brilliant, not every doctor is brilliant, etc.

I think Tumbit's comment on getting testimonials or recommendations is probably the best thing to do.

We can't tar all estate agents with the same brush, and to be honest, many of the crap ones have left the market and most of those left are at least half decent, which is why they are still in business today.

Justin

Justin the Title of the thread should read What do we really think about estate agents in Spain some people may confuse the current title as discriminating against the Spanish this was not my intention can you reword or if not just get rid off it

Thanks Rod

This message was last edited by rod on 16/09/2010.

Quote Justin "many of the crap ones have left the market and most of those left are at least half decent, which is why they are still in business today."

That's almost word for word what I said in a different thread talking about Property Prices in Spain.

I would imagine those Estate Agents that are left are decent at the very least... or it may be possible that they are very, very good at parting money from a fool with just a few words like "trust me!".

In business, especially when purchasing property ... trust nobody! If and when thy deliver what they promise, then partial trust can be given because it has been earned!

One of the differences between Spain and the UK (not between Spaniards and Britons) is the relationship they have with their client. I know I'm about to make a gross generalisation and there will be a bazillion exceptions but here goes.

In the UK you are more likely to ask your estate agent for a valuation, accept their advice on price, and give them all the information they need to do the best job they can for you. You are also more likely to instruct just one firm. You may let them take the lead in a negotiation. If they do a good job for you you might even be happy paying their fee.

Here it is more common to tell several estate agents how much you want for your property which is a figure based on no professional or comparable knowledge and is quite likely inspired by prices dating back to 2006 plus a bit. Even property professionals in Spain dont have access to information on prices actually achieved. They have only asking prices. The whole concept of a valuation, in Spain, is confounded by the so called valuations which are based on a formula rather than market knowledge which are the source of a huge amount of misinformation and mis-selling.

In Spain you are fairly unlikely to give your estate agents any information related to title or any defects or any information that might be useful to the agent doing a proper marketing and sales job. In fact you dont trust any of the agents and you resent paying their fee (which are indeed far higher as a % than in the UK). All your agents are in a race against each other to find the purchaser, they dont trust each other, and they arent trusted by the vendors and they dont have any useful information. Purchasers may well be talking to several agents on the same property and have different prices from each of them. You may well be talking to several purchasers at once and even if you arent as there are so many people doing the marketing you have no idea who is talking to who.

So its relatively chaotic here. And it all about the relationship of trust or otherwise that vendors have with their estate agents. Foreign estate agents have been willing participants in the melee.

Another way of looking at it is that its a more open market. Why its not a similar melee in the UK I'm not quite sure. Perhaps someone can tell us.

Its similar in a way to the question of why burglars in the UK dont just break through the downstairs windows and steal all the goodies in the house or why indeed enterprising Spanish burglars who, in Spain cant steal anything because of the railings over the windows,  dont set up in the UK and have a field day. Forgive me for going off topic.

John what an excellent synopsis of the way estate agents operate in spain i think 1% of the sale price is right for a sole agency placing so sellers could benefit and buyers as well and more agents could then be perhaps trusted

This multi listing service is probably part of the problem too ,have you yourself had bad advice in the past

Thanks for your time and input

Rod

This message was last edited by rod on 16/09/2010.

Rod, I agree that MLS is perhaps the biggest problem that has fallen upon Spanish real estate in recent years - more specifically the enormous amount of property dupications that it inspires. The amount of so called 'Property Portals' that it encourages is staggering.

Tumbit thanks for the reply i had a look at your website this morning very interesting i will look at it again this weekend it has a lot of good content

I can remember going out with one agent from ocean estates they have now closed thankfully before we bought our holiday home we were up and down the n340 for three days he was taking us to various different developments some of which I found out paid him 10% commision this was when the offplan boom was happening 2003/4/5 luckily we backed out but it was high pressure he wouldnt leave us alone

The agents that have survived are those who have concentrated efforts in a particular area and have a high street presence these chaps will become im sure better and sites like this have educated people too ,if i was looking again i would be happy to pay an hourly fee of say £100 for good advice from an experienced estate agency business and ban commision driven sales

We knock the UK but some things like buying a home are usually straight forward and involve people you can generally trust

One thing that really gets me is the 7% iva now thats an even bigger con surely all that money could provide some regulation in the house purchase market

Thanks Rod

This message was last edited  on 17/09/2010.

 Just a few comments from the other side of the fence.

"In the UK you are more likely to ask your estate agent for a valuation, accept their advice on price, and give them all the information they need to do the best job they can for you. You are also more likely to instruct just one firm. You may let them take the lead in a negotiation. If they do a good job for you you might even be happy paying their fee."

"Here it is more common to tell several estate agents how much you want for your property which is a figure based on no professional or comparable knowledge and is quite likely inspired by prices dating back to 2006 plus a bit. Even property professionals in Spain dont have access to information on prices actually achieved. They have only asking prices. The whole concept of a valuation, in Spain, is confounded by the so called valuations which are based on a formula rather than market knowledge which are the source of a huge amount of misinformation and mis-selling."

In the Uk we had Land registry as a tool but we always generally asked vendors what they were looking to achieve.

Your correct in saying that there are no tools to use for transparency in finding correct selling price.

You have to use old fashioned skils, ie, i know pretty much what every property is selling for in my area, you can then price by comparable sale price, for example on certain urbs villas will sell for 120,000€ so there is no point taking anything on over that price.

We tell vendors what it will achieve, the "i need" discussion is immaterial, the same as "i can't buy anything in the UK for that"argument is invalid.

This is not always met with a smile but it will sell your property.

The usual arguments of "mine is nicer than the one that sold next door" and "but i have aircon and a log burner fitted" are all immaterial, buyers create a pricing level.

"In Spain you are fairly unlikely to give your estate agents any information related to title or any defects or any information that might be useful to the agent doing a proper marketing and sales job"

Every agent should collect all information regarding the legality and finacial commitment of the property (by law)

Escritura.

Suma.

Elctricity and water bills.

Cedula de habitacion.

Final de obra.

Community fees.

Signed resale agreement.

We insist on all these before it can go on the market.

 "In fact you dont trust any of the agents and you resent paying their fee (which are indeed far higher as a % than in the UK). All your agents are in a race against each other to find the purchaser, they dont trust each other"

We generally charge 3% (of an average 60,000€) sales price.

Uk agents charge between 1.5% and 2% of £170,000 (average)

We do far far more work in Spain than in the uk, if you do the math, the figures are relative.

Most decent agents now work in an  agent network, it is the only way to survive , splitting commissions,sharing clients and having to trust each other implicitly!!

Everybody resents paying fees but most decent people appreciate the work involved these days.

" Purchasers may well be talking to several agents on the same property and have different prices from each of them. You may well be talking to several purchasers at once and even if you arent as there are so many people doing the marketing you have no idea who is talking to who."

This can be due to lazy estate agents and also down to vendors not informing agents that they have dropped prices with other agents, we do a monthly call out to try and update,get prices reduced etc....i know the vendors don't ring the other agents and tell them to drop it as well, hence the pricing difference, the same situation arises when we sell the property, i have seen property still on the web that i sold last year, also you only generally find a property is sold when you call for a viewing or update.

"John what an excellent synopsis of the way estate agents operate in spain i think 1% of the sale price is right for a sole agency placing so sellers could benefit and buyers as well and more agents could then be perhaps trusted"

I beg to differ on some of the posting as you can see above,if agents sold at 1% giving an average commission price of 600€ per sale they would be rarer than rocking horse droppings, nobody can run an estate agency here with average rents of 1,000€ per month and most agents only doing 2 sales per month, when you deduct iva, tax,staff and all other associated overheads it wouldn't work.

Don't forget that only 1 in 5 viewers actaully buy, the average doesn't work out that great, there is a lot of work done for nothing.

One thing that really gets me is the 7% iva now thats an even bigger con surely all that money could provide some regulation in the house purchase market

Iva (vat) is actually 8% on new build property only.

There is no vat on second hand property, it is a 7% property transfer tax.

I purely picked out a few points that were incorrect not to be patronising but i was invited to comment.

A little knowledge is a dangerous thing and it is far easier to jump on the band wagon than to steer it in the right direction!

We appreciate your views i didnt know  IVA had gone up to 8% i purchased in 2005 its even a bigger problem then can you imagine if it was 8% in the UK people would never buy again

It seems in your circumstances it would be better as i said to charge an hourly fee ask for a retainer then deduct your costs out of this, if all agents did this it would get rid of the dreamers and tire kickers you could sell the property at a cheaper price so the buyer is happy and the seller gets more money too and the industry gets a better name

Ps i have had experience of this business model and it works fine slightly different industry but a service industry all the same.

Thanks Rod

 appreciate the comments Rod but i fear the Brits in particular would object.

We are a browsing nation, how many people have been out looking on a sunday for something to do with agents or nosing around david wilson showhomes.

I think many would compare it with paying to get into Currys for a quick look.

I also think may people believe agents to pressure them and if they parted with money some agents would feel obligated to do so.

I have had had a couple of Dutch clients that have offered me a rate to find them a property, it was  a set fee rather than an hourly rate.

After 18 years i am used to the grief we get, i am fine with it as long as i don't get called a crook.

I studied for my exams and when through ongoing training from a  PLC company in the UK, it is not thye easiest job in the world, but it is a real proffesion if done correctly.

whether you are regulated or not, a lot of it comes down to the individual, the NAEA regulate the UK industry but i could tell you some stories that would make your hair curl from the old days!!

no different to any other industry i presume.

It does smart a bit when you are being told to get a real job by a dog groomer (si's partner) and labelled dodgy because of your nationality.

I have found that most of the agents that were really crooked have run out of ideas now and left these shores mainly because of great sites like this exposing them.

Georgia, Thanks for correcting my, perhaps out of date, views on both Spanish and UK estate agents practices. The collapse of the market has weeded out all the chancers.

By the way I know some very good estate agents in Spain and work successfully with them.

There is a difference though isnt there. I cant quite put my finger on it. What is it?

I think there have been two big changes in the market place in recent years. One is the lack of credit and the burst of the bubble. Purchasers now care about what they buy whereas before they werent so fussy because they believed that whatever they bought it would go up in value so they chose to ignore anything negative for example that you can hear the neighbour having a pee in the apartment next door, or inadequate shading to the south. Now they care more and are better informed. Lets hope we see a dramatic improvement in design and building standards.

Secondly is the use of the internet. Never before has the consumer (of anything not just real estate) been so powerful or had more choice. You can research even a complex subject in a few hours and source people's opinions well informed or otherwise. And wise businesses are open and transparent and present the people behind the business not just the business. People buy from people not from companies. Integrity is everything and you cant fake it. I dont know much about the UK but I would say the Spanish property market is being slow to embrace this new busines environment.

Comments please.

Dear Georia , I would like to point out that there are many dodgy `Dog Groomers around as their are many dodgy Estate Agents also , sadly in the case of Estate Agencies most of the latter are over seas !

What , pray makes you `smart` so much that a mere Dog Groomer should have the nerve, nay , the Intelligence to actually question some of the very sharp practices that seem to abound with in your `choosen` profession ?

It takes many long months and then years of upgrading studies   in animal husbandry , Zoonoses , Diseases transmitted from animal to human and vice versa , trained how to reconise certain illness , skin problems etc in all animals including  elderly animals, blind animals , nervous and disabled, also Insurances  issues , and then all the various breeds of Dog and how to do all the many cuts and grooming that are reconised .

This of course is demanded of owners of very much cared for and in certain circumstances very valuable Pets , would most leave a child or a member of their family , even much treasured and loved pets with any untrained `groomer` , I think not , people these days look for and demand excellent training , proof of such and much experience , plus very well cared for SAFE AND CLEAN PREMISES.

We have called into some `Agents` who have a tiny office, lots of out of date photos of properties long gone a desk and a phone , thats it , hardly professional really is it, thats why so many Brits are `Agents` , anyone without much brain can do it , its not regulated , and its still easy money , well maybe not so much now , but with 3-5% commission charges it ain`t bad is it, only 2-3 sales a year and you can live off that , not exactly hard work really!

I would probably assume that any well trained City& Guilds Groomer has probably far more quailificatioins then you could shake a stick at , after all it is well documented that virtually ALL Estate Agents in Spain never practiced as such in the UK soley because they would not be allowed to unless they all adhered to the strict rules and regulations, let alone some basic background in the Profession , its still quite amazing when you speak to people who are or have been looking in Spain for a property , doing only a little digging it becomes strange that nearly ALL have either been builders, Pub managers or roofers even in one case, then suddenley thay are Estate Agents AND in another country , wonder how that can be, possibly because any one can set up as an `Agent` , I use the wrd loosley here of course.

** EDITED - Please respect terms of posting **

This message was last edited by Si`s partner on 05/10/2010.

This message was last edited by Si`s partner on 05/10/2010.

This message was last edited by Si`s partner on 05/10/2010.

"Most decent agents now work in an  agent network, it is the only way to survive , splitting commissions,sharing clients and having to trust each other implicitly!! "   All the spanish agents have always done that around here.

Whilst I agreewith Gus, it is also the case that there are many Agents ( English and Spanish ) who simply join a Network to gain access to a database of Properties, and then Market them 'en masse' to a variety of property portals, both here in Spain and in the UK.

By doing this they are essentially bulk buying advertising space and getting hefty discounts from the portals for doing this, in exchange for shared commissions from the original listing Agents.

In some cases it is still the original listing Agent who will be doing the show rounds and leg work, with the 'bulk buyer' just marketing the property.

That' one problem, but the other problem that this causes is that in some cases a single property may be listed with 5 or 6 Agents. If those 5 or 6 Agents then collaborate with a further 5 or 6 other Agents, it is conceivable that all 30 'Listings' - although the same property - could end up being advertised on the same property portal - albeit with different photographs, descriptions and prices.