Can Spain ever self correct?

OK folks, there's a recent frustrated posting by Norman on the thread relating to home demolition in Vera, much of which many of us can associate with, but for those of us looking for solutions, do any of you out there have any positive suggestions as to how you can eradicate from within Spain such a "third world" practice, and also eradicate the justice mal-administration that is crippling the Spanish justice system right now?

My question therefore is "Can Spain ever self correct ?"

My answer is yes. However it will take many many years and a lot of hard work.

The problem is it is seen as the "norm' (no pun intended)

We have been here since the 80's and there has been some change. But the old practices remain. How many can say they have not been offered a 'deal' - no IVA to pay etc.??

I have seen recently deals with black money on property exchanges, with knowledge of abogados and Notary. Yes it is better but it still happens.

Before anyone jumps back at me, yes I know it happens in the UK. Not to the same degree and not so prevalent as it was many years ago when I was in business.

It is good that us ex pats push for change. However the Spanish need to be on board, I believe the new generation are.

I thought things would change after entry into the Euro but it hasn't really. I fear for the economy and the country if it is not corrected.

Remember this is a fledgeling democracy and old habits die hard.

Push for change, get the Spanish on board and get the change. But change it must. Just as the cruelty to animals and bull fighting is changing. Slowly slowly

I fear though it will take a long long time.

No - not within the legal system.

I have always maintained Spain is a third world or frontier type country - there are no laws to protect innocent people - in any event the burden of proof is too high.

Every public office is corrupt and it all depends on who you know or who your family is as to what can be done. It should not make any difference who you are or who you engage as to the end result. We need customer charters and fair play. Why can the cousin of a cousin get a document stamped same day whilst Mr Extranjero must wait months and Mr Extranjero (more fool him) is probably trying to do it by the book .......

Money is still changing hands in these public offices officially or unofficially .........................

You either live here and do it the Spanish way and find out who you should be speaking to get something done with speed or else ship out or organise riots on every street corner - block airports/roads - then something might happen.

It will, but it's still going to take some considerable time.

I talked about some of this in a article I wrote last year.

Not sure if Zapatero has read it yet though

Justin

Thanks to all for your replies and Justin, that is some wish list! Agree with it all by the way........

Faro, when you mention Charters and fair play, how do you see customer charters being developed in Spain?

Is it reasonable to suppose that this could ever be developed by a working party made up of knowlegeable professionals like yourself, good lawyers and consumer advocates, all coming together to identify workable solutions? How can change of this nature be effected in Spain?

Do you know (or does anyone know) of any Spanish government officials (or even local officials) who are committed to finding solutions / reform (again from within), and if so can we know of them please? Indeed, are there any in office trying to effect change as we speak? Does anyone ever hear voices speaking out for change of this nature within the Spanish political system?

Faro, do you think that even with good evidence (from all the petitions) that the EU route for accountability is a non starter? (Sorry that goes against the thread title.........but a question worth asking nevertheless).

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Yes, I really think that some sort of working party could well be our best chance for justice and Spains best chance for recovery?. The two are so much part of the same problem, but plea's for justice alone obviously falls on deaf ears.  I guess the hardest part is to turn minds in Spain from accepting that corruption is part of the system?. Before Spain can make substancial changes to improve the  system, it's people have to accept that the problem is from within and that the current calls for change often from outside the country are the way to go. How much pride swallowing does that take, that alone the cultural change?. Surely sooner or later the equation of the much written about  bad ways and the current downfall will be accepted by enough Spanish people to take what ever mearsures needed to reverse the rot?  Will that in itself produce a working party?

I don't really think that many people in Spain give a flying toss about those caught up in the property scanal, but if they can see that measures to 'correct' the country would also have a positive effect on the whole property industry, then I think that a working party for that reason could be considered an urgent matter?.  Probably just wishful thinking, but for heavens sake how much more evidence is required????

goodstich44 makes a good point.

Also Many Spanish believe British people only have themselves to blame and of course those Spanish that did not make money from the property boom blame the British mainly for driving up the prices and for years they could not afford to buy.  Of course there are some Spanish caught up in the legal problems also.

The other problem is Spanish people are incedibly arrogant and do not like being told how things should be done. Afterall Spain is their country and their ways and many are part of the system or have family working as civil servants or police etc

On many occassions I have heard Spanish people say if you don't like it leave. Spanish people will happily take your money but they don't like you.

I think in it's way Spain has started on it's own course of change

Due to Spain's involvement with the rest of Europe

I believe that is why the Junta's are taking more control over the Provincial councils dealings. I'm sure they realise that many of the current  problems stem from local and individual greed. Be that the Mayor who wants to improve his township to the individual that lines his personal purse. Of course the property boom just made that easier, all justified by employment, improved townships, the tourist euro and cosumer demand

So the bubble has burst and now the dust is clearing we are left with the current problems

Illeagal builds

Units not built to promised specification

Uncompleted urbanizations

All of the above causing unsuspecting buyers to lose their cash one way or another At this point i would say that it is not just us Brits with problems i think all nationalities were duped and the Spainish being the bigger percentage

At this point we have to accept that Spain has drawn "it's line in the sand''

The court systems are gradually sifting through the initial deluge of claims, remember not all judicial systems are as "modern'' as ours. Of course the time spans make it easier for the unscrupulus offload companies, assets etc

So we come to today  where many are awaiting litigation to begin, many are awating judgements and  many have judgements and are awaiting recompense. This is where the time issue kicks in and that as they say is the problem

To get where we all want be it will take massive reveiws of Spain's whole judicial structure which would need time to filter from Madrid to your local court. There would need to be a total reform of Bank and Solicitor accountability There would need to be an overhaul of the rules of bankruptcy To get there we are looking at a cycle of decades

I do believe that Spain will, and in the not to distant future, allot funds for the property "scandel'' recompense

I understand that we would all like an instant Government acknowledgement of the problems, but that in turn increases our expectations for an instsnt fix and that just couldn't happen in Spain or anywhere

So for today we have to keep banging the drum,  highlight all problems to the highest level and sadly wait!

Dear All,

Influence of course is everything in these matters!!!!

the problem is that since the EU it's the corruption influence that is spreading not the reform.

but that may be temporary while the Brits, Irish and others rush to join now that they see how others have got away with it.

there may be a couple of decades of corruption mayhem.

then very very slowly, say a century or two, improvement may come.

on the other hand the Euro and the EU may not be able to sustain corruption from all before it goes under.

yet again, the sun may prevail and bring another property boom to save Spain bothering to accept criticsm.

It is not clear to me why so many seek to deny the truths given here?

how can you love such a place and it's people?

Regards

Norman

 "how can you love such a place and it's people?"

Great so i pop in and the asylum has restored internet connection i see!! the austerity cuts are not running that deep then....!

The answer to that Question Norman is because the country and the majority of it's population are decent law abiding people.

It is often asked why the Spanish people don't protest at these matters,who knows really but ask yourself this......all the people on here who continually dig at this country......WHERE WERE YOUR PROTEST WHEN MUSLIMS PARADED THROUGH THE CAPITAL OF YOUR COUNTRY ON REMEMBRANCE SUNDAY,DISRUPTING THE RESPECT WE SHOW FOR OUR FALLEN OLD AND NEW!!!

HOW CAN YOU LET PEOPLE IN YOUR CAPITAL BURN A POPPY AND WAVE BANNERS WITH "SOLDIERS BURN IN HELL" ON.

FORGET THE PETITIONS AND QUESTIONS THAT YOU WANT THE ANSWERS TO ON HERE........HERE IS ONE FOR THE RESIDENTS OF THE UK.........WHY DIDN'T YOU STOP THAT? WHY WERE YOU NOT STOPPING THE PROTEST? WHERE WAS YOUR PRIDE THEN?

WHERE IS YOUR BACKBONE? and finally SORT YOUR OWN MESS OF A COUNTRY OUT BEFORE YOU WORRY YOURSELF WITH THIS ONE.

If that would have happened in Spain protesters would have been shot and so they should.

My dear grandfather who fought for your country will be spinning in his grave......something about "own house in order first".......

(JUST WATCHED THE COVERAGE SO THIS MIGHT BE A TOUCH EMOTIVE)

Hi Norman

Good to have you back.

However you cannot write off a whole country and its people because of corruption in its

property market.

I would not use the word love but I enjoy the Spanish weather and culture.

I have lived her for 12 years and in that time have found that the biggest rogues have been

my own countrymen the British.( not too many but enough)

We use the health system which is on a par if not better than at home.

However, I do not wear rose tinted glasses and enjoy my holiday time back in England

I have worked with many honest hardworking Spanish professionals .

The Spanish are not used to relying on state handouts but stick together as families

and support each other.

I know you have lost a great deal of money here in Spain but what nationality was the first

person you dealt with here? 

please try to keep a more balanced view However,in your case I might feel the same

kind regards

Keep posting

Peteha - you are correct to say expats have been behind many scams on the costa del sol and Spain in general. But one of the reasons for that is Spain becuase of it's lack of regulation and it's expensive and procedural legal system  made it all possible.

Of course many of these type of expats played on Spain's corruption saying don't worry about it this is what everyone does out here - go ahead build your villa - put in your pool - don't worry about the fact that the land is protected rustic this is what everyone does here - licences not necessary .....

Spain has attracted a lot of the wrong type of expat. I advise caution when dealing with any and then to only deal with those that are preofessionally qualified.

Spain needs clear rules and then it must be consistent - ie one rule for all and timely decisions. Many of the Town Halls will not put anything in writing - why?

Recently at a tax office whilst reviewing a matter on screen I asked for a printout and then the shutters came down and I was told I would need to fill in a request form which would go upstairs to be considered and in about a months time I might get my printout. In other jurisdictions I have full online access and never need to visit tax offices in person. In Spain it is mostly necessary to go in person and cut down a rain forest every visit and the same applies to any public office.

These are just example of where it has to start - being open and honest and giving proper and clear advice such that people do not need to engage lawyers/gestorias to find loopholes. It's very annoying to be told what you want told is not possible and at the same time Spanish owned businesses are doing just what you have been told you can't do. So fairness and one rule for all and consistent enforcement that's where it has to start.

Dear All,

however emotive one may be one truth will never deny another.

what is true is true.

I too have enjoyed my holidays but never realised what a regime I was supporting.

Perhaps our free speech laws are too liberal but I cannot support shooting protesters on the street no matter how offensive I find their views, in part.

I have long been critical of our "due diligence" before invading Irak and believe that we are yet to reap the whirlwind.

I suspect that if it was an action to protect oil supplies it will be counter productive.

If Georgia wishes to support policemen who shoot people and turn them out of their homes while they demolish them that is his choice, but insulting others who do not is silly, most especially if there is a commercial advertising motive, then that is just another form of corruption, is it not?

Those that think they are integrating seem to be kidding themselves, integrating itself may be a very long process.

There is clearly much that is wrong and you are supporting the bad you are refusing to see as well as the little good, which is mostly sun worship anyway.

Regards

Norman

Faro

all so true, and Spains current  mess and abuse of human rights is the inevitable result.  The scumbags from the UK were indeed attracted to the lies and deception, so it's not suprising so many of them are now giving ex-pats a bad name by taking advantage of a system that so often looks after those in the wrong far better than it does those in the right!!  That has to be recognised, accepted and changed before Spain can move on from the dark days of corruption, lack of regulation and injustice. I think everyone knows what needs to change, but perhaps only when the people of Spain are ready will things improve for those on the right side, not least all those cheated from all countries involved. In the meantime, frustrating though it is, it seems all we can do is encourage moves in that direction by petitions, lobbying, protest or what ever else fights for those in the right.

georgia

the burning of the poppy situation was clearly recognised as being wrong by most people in the UK. I think that's the difference?

 Norman,

As usual you are twisting statements that people have never made.

I have never advocated the demolition of any property or eviction of any resident,either Spanish or Foreign.

Your silly comments just emphasize the point that you have absolutely no idea!

I have probably helped more people with legal issues in my time than you ever will with your pointless digs at anyone who tends to disagree.

To say people only move here for sun worship is ridiculous.

People move here so they don't have to see there flag burnt in their own country in front of them on a regular basis,thats just for starters.

Your statement about allowing people freedom of speech sums you up in one statement and probably the whole country as a whole!

Whatever happened to treason?

People move to Spain for the social and family values of the people,agreed the laws were very soft but your views on Spanish life are based on a 2 week Thomson get away.

For people who may not keep up to date with the news on the Costa Del Sol

A trial has recently commenced in Malaga charging ex mayors town planners etc.

they are charged with corruption and misuse of office giving planning permission

on green belt land etc.

Up to a hundred people have been charged,their assets frozen and some have already

served time in jail for related offences.

their corruption was accepted practice 10 to 15 years ago but now they are being held to account

individuals who have been wronged can only hope this will start a chain of events that will

eventually bring them justice.

as the people being tried were acting with the developers who defrauded people on the CDS.

So to say the legal system is doing nothing is incorrect

We've seen all this before!

A little slap on the wrist - spend a few months in a comfy prison - and then come out smiling and return to their luxury villa and they and their family and friends get to keep all the money they made from years of corruption.

In fact in the past did some (I think the Marbella mayor) not remain on the payroll whilst in prison because they had to retrun to work to be dismissed or something stupid like that - ie could not be dismissed whilst in prison?

Will the judge also rule anyone who was an innocent victim will receive full and immediate compensation.

It is a move in the right direction and there is less corruption these days but it is still going on even if not as open as in the past.

Dear All,

I suppose that there is no such thing as bad advertising.

"If that would have happened in Spain protesters would have been shot and so they should."

the unfortunates who lost their homes were under exactly that threat and in the case of the Spanish family in the middle of the night as reported.

Is it possible to support the one without the other?

My holiday support was unknowing and may never be repeated.

Faro tells us what Vicky had already told us, nothing has changed nor is it likely to.

I have learnt to be wary of all enthusists most especially hungry traders.

You cannot of course change the regime because your village neighbour is a nice chap, in any case there is little chance of any change if the national character is one of unbending arrogance.

Rant as much as you like, it changes nothing.

Regards

Norman

Faro is correct, compensation/accountability is all in this equation. There is little point to any self correction if consumers are ultimately left financially unprotected or compromised at the end of the day.

Dear All,

what good news from Peteha, I would of course be enormously encouraged if those who facilitated every "deal" the lawyers, were amongst those charged. 

perhaps then we could really believe that change is upon us.

I suppose it is not likely that this time it will be different, we can but hope.

Regards

Norman