Yes, Thistles, that is exactly the situation.

Most -- if not all -- EOS posts concern Brits living in Spain and although both are EU members -- who must adhere to the same EU directives or be fined -- there are in this thread alone at least 3 areas in which agreements are either bilateral (e.g. tax) or sovereign (e.g.  traffic) & not covered by EU directives.

Concerning the former -- income tax -- I've read ridiculous (& possibly dangerous) statements e.g. that one is tax resident in Spain after 3 months, 1 month, whatever, but one cannot be tax resident in 2 separate countries simultaneously so even a simpelton understands that if he lives 6 months or more in one country, he is tax resident in that country. And if he lives 3 months or less in another, he is not. I now understand why tax accountants are so rich....

Traffic is a sovereign matter. For example, the country in which my vehicles are registered -- and must stay registered as I'm paying income tax in that country, which means I'm physically present there for 183 days a year or more -- states that if the vehicle hasn't a valid (equivalent of) ITV when the vehicle's in the country (not abroad, where that country has no jurisdiction obviously), I must have proof of an appointment with an approved (equivalent of) ITV testing station, and a green card (insurance) covers all EU countries -- & some others e.g. Switzerland -- without restriction. Seems reasonable & practical to me. But from EOS threads, it's clear that's not the case in the UK: 30 days, 45 days, or whatever for insurance outside UK; insurance of "non-approved" underwriters in the UK invalid; soon as you drive on UK soil you must have valid MoT, etc. That's the UK's right; it is a sovereign matter. Like driving on the left.

I'm sure one day -- just as the in the US -- we, the EU (& the UK if it remains part of it), will have our traffic controlled by Brussels -- registration, licences, insurance, etc -- but that hasn't happened yet & I don't know about all of you with foreign-plated cars in Spain, but I must budget €100/month for fines. OK, that's just a tank of fuel these days but I have awful trouble with "either way you lose" which is perfectly legally enforced. It's a joke: local Guardia Civil sees me, flags me down, "Hi again, how are you?", I get the €100 bill out & they give me a receipt....... As in a previous post, if the taxmen can get their acts together, why not Traffic? 

I would live to know how many do not pay the income tax where they should be pay it. I doubt very much that all the expats pay the tax in Spain.

Hi Johnzx

with regard to insurance issued in the uk for cars I do beg to differ as direct lines policy terms and conditions states :

1. Territorial limits
This policy provides the cover described in your schedule in Great Britain,
Northern Ireland, the Republic of Ireland, the Isle of Man, the Channel Islands
and during journeys between these places.
2. Using your car abroad
This policy also provides the minimum cover you need by law to use
your car in:
• any country which is a member of the European Union; and
• any country which the Commission of the European Community approves
as meeting the requirements of Article 7(2) of the European Community
Directive on Insurance of Civil Liabilities arising from using motor vehicles
(number 72/166/CEE).
Countries include:
Andorra, Austria, Belgium, Bulgaria, Croatia, Cyprus, Czech Republic,
Denmark, Estonia, Finland, France, Germany, Greece, Hungary, Iceland,
Italy, Latvia, Liechtenstein, Lithuania, Luxembourg, Malta, Netherlands,
Norway, Poland, Portugal, Romania, Slovakia, Slovenia, Spain, Sweden,
and Switzerland.

Cover in these countries only applies if your main permanent home is in the
United Kingdom and your visit abroad is for less than 90 days.

Which means if some one is a resident in spain then a uk insurance policy is void !

Also it states :
under general conditions :

6. Taking care of your car
You and any person who is covered by this policy must:
• make sure your car is roadworthy;
• take all reasonable steps to protect your car and its contents
from loss or damage;
• make sure you keep property left in an open or convertible car
in a locked boot or locked glove compartment; and
• allow us to examine your car at any reasonable time if we ask you.

so if a car does not have a current mot or road tax , it is not road worthy ! it does not say road worthy in the uk or with the exception of countries outside the uk :-) as stated under the road trafic act 1988 section 45 , this is why a car in the uk with no mot will be seized now , and under eu law it does state that a vehicle can be driven crossed boarder providing it is road legal in the country it is being driven in and also the one it is registered in , so in spain you have to have a mot or an itv or if the car is less than three years old and is uk then it does not need an mot.so can be driven in spain as long as it is adapted for and you comply with spanish law ie beam benders for the lights to make the beam pattern flat so it does not kick into the middle of the road, first aid kit and triangle and illumi jacket , The road tax again is the same if you have current road tax paid inside the uk then you can drive on spanish roads with it how ever if you dont pay road tax in the uk then your car is not road legal in the uk so you either have to pay it here ( which you can not on a english car ) or its illegal , no where does it state that forign cars can be driven on spanish roads if they are not road legal either in the country of registration or in spain.

So basicly if you can be prosecuted in the uk for road worthyness of a uk car then it is not road worthy and your insurance terms and conditions state your insurance is void .

 In reality Traffico wont kick up about an mot or road tax and the insurance company might not untill the day someone knocks someone over or kills them and the claim is huge , and then you will find the insurance company will try and find a way out of paying as they always do ,

Plus and not forgetting the majority of people do not check there cars brakes , tyres , suspension for safety so if a car has been here for say 5 yrs with no mot who is to say it is safe ? even though an mot is only valid on the day of issue
 

ok well you might of been a police officer , but i would surgest you read www.direct.gov.uk/en/Motoring/BuyingAndSellingAVehicle/ImportingAndExportingAVehicle/DG_4022582

as it states :

If a UK registered vehicle is taken abroad temporarily, it remains subject to UK law. This means that you as the keeper, must by law make sure that the vehicle stays taxed while it’s overseas. Providing the vehicle has a current MOT certificate and insurance, you’ll be able to tax the vehicle.

If you don’t tax the vehicle and it’s brought back to the UK untaxed, the vehicle will need to be transported and not driven upon entry back to the UK and SORN (Statutory Off Road Notification) should be declared straight away.

You can tax or SORN online or by telephone, but please note that SORN can’t be made while the vehicle is abroad.

so your argument either means you want to apply uk law or you want apply an argument ex pats use to get around spanish law where it suits people ie no tax needed because its english being used on a spanish road

or

as the dvla website  states it is now illegal to own a uk registarded car if it is not either taxed , sworn or permantantly exported and obviously if it permantly exported then you have to register it in spain

and as you seem to have missed the part about being a uk resident here it is again "Cover in these countries only applies if your main permanent home is in the United Kingdom and your visit abroad is for less than 90 days."

and to be honest i can not see why people even argue the toss over this , they would not do it in the uk drive around with no tax or mot , and in my opinion un road worthy condition so why do they do it here ?? if you live in spain abide by spanish law ie transfer it onto spanish plates, every one who lives here chooses to live here so you should pay your dues ! pay your road tax , pay your insurance and pay your registration fees

And as for insurance goes third party fire and theft plus glass cover on a ford ka 2001 value 2000 euros for any driver above 25 is 168 euros in spain with a spanish insurance company as english are 25% cheaper to insure with a spanish car  than the spanish on a spanish car ! now you tell me where in england you can insure a ka 1.3 worth 1700 pounds for any one over 25 for anywhere near that ??

and just to add a bit of fuel to the discussion

if an mot or road tax has nothing to do with roadworthiness then why is the following true :

Law RTOA sect 34

so you can get 1000 pound fine for a car that is road worthy now can you ?

and

you can have your car seized in the uk for no road tax ,

i dont think the argument of you can drive a car in spain with no road tax , no mot and someone breaking the terms and conditions of a uk insurance policy ( ie must be a uk resident when they actually live here and the car must be road worthy) stands up really does it ?

You are being fined 1k for not having an mot certificate, not for the fact that it is not roadworthy.

You cannot have a UK vehicle , regardless of the fact that it may be taxed, insured & mot'd, outside of the UK continuously.

Reply from dvla.

"Dear Mr Lopez

Thank you for your email received on 6/3/10. Your email reference number is 271969.

It appears that the vehicle will be taken to Spain and only brought back to the UK to obtain an MOT. Your acquaintance is not able to keep the vehicle registered in the UK under these circumstances if it is being kept abroad.

The following information will be useful to your acquaintance.

It may be helpful if I explain that, if you are taking your vehicle out of the country on a permanent basis (over 12 months) you must notify us immediately of the vehicle's intended export.

If you have a Registration Document V5 you can do this by filling in section C to show the intended date of export. The V5 should then be returned to:

DVLA

Swansea

SA99 1AG

Even the motorhomers have a problem !

" Dear Mr Lopez

Thank you for your email received on 9/3/10. Your email reference number is 274778.



I can confirm that all vehicles, if taken outside the UK for more than 12 months, should be notified as exported, regardless of whether the keeper still has a UK address.


This would include motorhomes.

It is also important that keepers contact the licensing authorities of the country their vehicles are being used in, to establish their requirements. "

& this the reply when the question of period of time was asked.

" Dear Mr Lopez

Thank you for your email received on 11/3/10. Your email reference number is 278553.

European Union (EU) vehicles which are circulating temporarily within or between community Member States are allowed under EC Directive 83/182, to be used on public roads without the need to register or pay duties in the host country. These provisions limit visits to six months in a twelve-month period and the vehicle must comply with the registration and licensing requirements of its home country. "

We cannot comment on the registration and licensing requirements of other licensing authorities. You will need to check the domestic requirements with each individual authority.

I am sorry I cannot be more helpful."

I know but road worthiness in my opinion is a car thats fully legal , ie safe , legal and so on , legal meaning taxed  moted insured . The point i was trying to make was an insurance company will try and wiggle out of any big claim they can , so if someone knocks someone over and lets say (god forbid) gives them brain damage then the claim is millions , now if someone is driving around in a uk car in spain un taxed , un moted they will say 1. its not in a road worthy condition , 2, the insurance was for a uk resident , the insurance t & c's state the insurance will be void , so why do ex pats do it so much in spain ? Plus I know the majority of uk cars thats been here for more than 12 months was actually taken to a english mot station it would fail, so then they would be unroad worthy !

DVLA actually say anything longer than 6 months is classed as a export now , see the post 3 down copied from dvla website today.

Comes down to if people move to spain they should adopt the spanish life style positives and negatives and abide by the spanish laws .

My neighbour had 2 british registered cars parked at his door for 4 years and both used constantly. I expect he paid the road tax on-line as he never left the country at anytime. How he managed  or not  to M.O.T.  them both is a puzzle to me[ maybe he took pot luck and was never stopped by traffico police here in Spain.]   Lo and behold !, one day he found a slip of paper on his windscreen, outside his house........... whilst patrolling the community   the police had taken note of his vehicles and after the allotted time allowed with british reg.,    they acted on it.      It was from traffico and my neighbour immediately  changed his 2 vehicles into spanish plates,  but also,     he had to get his headlights altered as well.  He had got away with it  for 4 yrs but it just shows the police do notice.

The following information is from the ONE STOP SHOP in Tenerife, but the basics must also apply to mainland Spain.

Hope this is of some use:

What type of "residencia" residence document should I have?

This information correct as at Feb 2012

Here are the basic requirements for adult EU citizens in Tenerife Spain:

1) White NIE certificate valid for up to 3 months - then superceded by either 2 or 3 depending on your status · copy and original of application form Ex15 and Modelo 790 for a 9,28 euro payment in the bank, copy and original of your passport when you attend the National Police Station /Extranjeria. Certificate issued on the day. If you already have an NIE number this stays with you for life and you can then jump to point 2 or 3 depending on your circumstances.

2) Green Certificate of registro -from November 2011 this is in a credit card sized format but still made of paper, for indefinite or fixed length stays of over 3 months · 1 copy of application form Ex18, Modelo 790 for a 10,20 euro payment, 1 passport type photo, (if at Las Américas - not required in Puerto de la Cruz) photocopy and original of Passport and copy of an in date Empadronamiento when you attend the National Police station/Extranjeria· issued on the spot.

3) Certificate of NON residence for Spanish Bank - stays in TOTAL of under 6 months in any one year · Original & copy of application form Ex15, Modelo 790 for a 10,20 euro payment, photocopy and original of Passport when you attend the National Police station/Extranjeria· Issued 3 to 4 working days later. Most Banks will see to this on your behalf if you have a non-residents bank account with them, but they do make a charge for the service.

So lets look at these and other different types of document in more detail:

Firstly
EU citizen’s registration Certificate
This was issued as a green coloured A4 watermarked paper but from November 2011 this is in a credit card sized format but still made of paper….. For people living in the south, its issued at the National Police Station in Las Americas
Obtaining a green certificate is an immigration requirement for anyone who stays here in Tenerife for periods of longer than 3 months at a time, it will show your NIE which is a foreigners identity number, but if you don’t already have an NIE number you must apply for one first see above and you should already be on your local authority's Padron.
You should also go back to the National Police Station and revoke this certificate if you return to the UK for good.
In other words the European powers-that-be have decided that 3 months holiday at a time is long enough for anyone!

Incidentally if you don’t go back and you stay here in Tenerife for 5 years continuously and intend to stay for an indefinite period after
that, then you should obtain the permanent resident’s version - which is still a green paper but has a slightly different wording on it.

UPDATE as of 29 November 2011

The format of the European Citizens Certificate of Residence in Spain has changed again with effect from (in Tenerife) 29 November 2011.

The certificate is now being issued in credit card size although still printed on green paper.

Certificates issued in the A4 format (see below) are still valid.

On to number 2
The 2nd type of residency document is a
Certificate of Spanish FISCAL residency. This shouldn't be confused with the immigration requirements dealt with above.

You can get a Spanish Fiscal residency certificate from the Spanish Tax office called the “Hacienda” and this is basically a confirmation that you paid your income taxes, on earned or unearned income in Spain, in a particular year, or are registering to do so from now on.
Taxation is a very complicated subject, but as a rule of thumb if you spend 183 days or more in Spanish territory during any one calendar year .. a Spanish Tax year runs from January to December by the way…. Then you will be fiscally resident in Spain.

Now lets talk about number 3
Residency document Number 3 will be completely phased out by April 2012 but for the moment there may still be some of you with an in-date small plastic Residencia cardwith your photograph on, if there are, you probably already know that when this expires you will be required by law to get a green coloured card sized certificate to replace it.
 

The fourth document is an NIE certificate – this is a white A4 paper which is now issued only to Non residents to show that they have an NIE number,

The NIE number stays with you for life, but these days the white coloured certificate itself is only valid for 3 months from the date of issue, I know this was different for some people under previous regulations but that’s what happens for new applications now.

The 5th type of document is for Non Residents who have a bank account here in Spain and they need a Spanish Certificate of NON Residency,
This is also a white A4 document and also carries your NIE number it can be issued by the Police Station in Las Américas if you want to go there and apply for it yourself, but more usually the bank where you have your Non resident’s account applies for it on your behalf (for which privilege they charge you by the way) This certificate is usually renewed every 2 years.

On to document number 6.. this is used by both Non fiscal residents and fiscal residents alike if they have a permanent base here in Tenerife. That can be owned or rented long term.
This is called a certificate of Empadronamiento: The certificate which is valid for 6 months, proves that you have been registered on the Municpal census (Padron) as living at your current address in Spain.
You should advise the Town Hall of any changes of address, but in any case if you have not had any dealings at all with your town hall during a five year period you are required by law to re-register.You would use this certificate to prove your address for things like a car purchase for example.

And finally number 7 which is a new requirement for 2011

If you are Non Fiscally Resident – remember that means you don’t pay your income taxes here, but do own property here in Tenerife and you also let that property out to long or short term tenants, from January this year you will be required to obtain a UK bi-lingual certificate proving fiscal residency in the UK.
This is a dual language document and is issued by your local UK tax office and is valid for 1 year.

THIS IS ONLY IF YOU LET YOUR SPANISH PROPERTY OUT FOR GAIN If you do not get rental income in Spain you continue to do Non-Resident’s deemed annual income tax returns…

the 'new' assets declaration debate is taking the joy out of starting living here, only here two years and casa not even finished (its a  self build)

what is the real risk facror in the fines for even minor errors?  our assets are not a lot but there must be others thinking like me that the risk outweighs the being here and that the UK is the lesser of two evils and the reformed casa becomes just a holiday home and i cancel my residentia

does anyone have a view on how the hacienda plan to check on what you declare. i seem to envisage that a datbase to track it all would never cope  so does one just invent figures   or use a best guess? eg. how can it check a UK house value.

have been to a spanish accountant and they seemed as bewildered as i am and virtually no-one  has done anything yet.

basildonbond-on Camposol we have a builder(not the only one) who has lived here for more than 10 years, has been running his business using UK vehicles-JCB, pickup, trailer, 4x4( tax disc long disappeared.)The Police ignore him, possibly don't know the law in relation to UK vehicles, especially commercial ones, which apparently can't be used legally in Spain. What stories he tells the police, if stopped, I don't know. Many have complained about him to the council and the police. One person was told  he had to make a denuncia before the police acted. Why? this man is illegal on the road . An individual should not have to put his/her head above the parapet, risking intimidation from the man concerned, who appears to be an arrogant individual.If people stopped using him it might help.

A few cubes of crushed vehicles, delivered to his door would be the language he'd understand-nothing has worked so far.Any ideas?

Why are insurance companies insuring these vehicles?It's obvious they don't ask too many questions!