Bank Repossessions Again

This is not asking for intervention in private matters but feeding back information which is relevant in their advisory capacity going forward.

This website already advises and forewarns, so new information of this nature would be useful to them in terms of updating their ongoing advice.

This message was last edited by ads on 09/11/2018.

Kavanagh: There is something call Consumers Law. There are lawyers who are passionate about it and about fighting banks for the balance of the financial system. The law profession is on defending clients´ interests and some of us also enjoy the contribution to society that this makes.

Some answers to Ads questions below in bold green:

Does this tactic to increase community fees act as disincentive in the case where the Bank has repossessed and is renting out in the interim? 

Are they able to rent out if they have not declared that they own the property? They can, as they have the repossession judicial decree as ownership title. 

Are local authorities also financially compromised by their failure to declare ownership? Yes, as very possibly they have not made the change of IBI.

In terms of educating new buyers, is it time for administrators to whistle blow all of these compromising details to the foreign office who are already forewarning potential purchasers of problems on their website?.... It does not compromise new buyers but current owners of community of owners

Two steps, mainly:

1ª.- Once the Bank repossess the property, it is liable of unpaid quotas corresponding to the annuity of the adjudication and to the three previous years. 

2ª.- The way to know for certain-- and to prove--- that a Bank is the owner of a property is to ask for nota simple of this in the  Land Registry so you can find out details of Court and Court proceeding.  By knowing this, you will be able to know the date of repossession, this is the first date of ownership by the Bank.  

Thank you Maria.

Can I ask a question relating to new buyers please...

Where you say it does not compromise new buyers, ....if the Bank refuses to pay the debt during the delay period described  and the Community have provided a majority vote to increase fees to non paying debtors in the interim, but then the Bank sells the repossessed  property at a much later date, doesn’t the new unsuspecting buyer then become responsible for the increased fee debt that the bank has still failed to pay, which will have been accumulating in the lengthy period between bank repossession and resale?

Isn’t this a form of compromising a new buyer as the new unsuspecting purchaser will be paying way over the odds at point of purchase ( or become liable?) to meet the Banks increased debt set against the property?

Also where you note that the local authority could be compromised by the Bank not declaring ownership, would a new owner then become liable for any back dated IBI payments not made by the Bank during the lengthy period of Bank’s  non payment?

2ª.- The way to know for certain-- and to prove--- that a Bank is the owner of a property is to ask for nota simple of this in the  Land Registry so you can find out details of Court and Court proceeding.  By knowing this, you will be able to know the date of repossession, this is the first date of ownership by the Bank.  

MARIA, you have already previously stated that the bank is nit legally obliged to advise the Land Registry and that it was obligatory.

From recent experience, this is the problem, they do so, IF and when it suits them NOT the Community.

Despite Administrators chasing them, documentation with regard to date of change of ownership is not always forthcoming.

Perhaps the Law should oblige any new owner either through purchase OR repossession to advise the Land Registry, immediately.

Ads

If the Banks continue to refuse to pay the increased fees until they sell, then all that will happen is the increased accumulated debt will either be written off depending on timeframes ( still compromising owners ), or the new unsuspecting purchaser will be paying way over the odds at point of purchase to meet the Banks increased debt set against the property. 

Is this correct?

Yes, Debt remains with the property, the seller either pays the debt or through a debt certificate notifies any new buyer.

If so, this does not appear to make the Banks accountable so long as they refuse to pay,  irrespective of the amount being charged.

Its an incentive for those owners who do pay on time, either the bank owes more, when they finally decide to pay up OR the new buyer agrees a price reduction to cover debts owed.

I can see how increasing fees can work for individual debtors however, given they are presumably still using the property ( rented or otherwise), and can be denied access to pool areas etc if they continue to refuse to pay, as agreed by majority vote. 

Increasing fees and offering discounts to regular payers provides an incentive to ALL owners 

Questions remain however....

Does this tactic to increase community fees act as disincentive in the case where the Bank has repossessed and is renting out in the interim? 

Not if the bank pays the approved fees on time, which some do once they have declared ownership.

Are they able to rent out if they have not declared that they own the property?

Yes, I think MARIA has confirmed that.

Are local authorities also financially compromised by their failure to declare ownership?

Yes, in exactly the same way as Communities.

In terms of educating new buyers, is it time for administrators to whistle blow all of these compromising details to the foreign office who are already forewarning potential purchasers of problems on their website?....

It is up to the prospective buyers lawyer to obtain a debt certifificate from the Administrator or to agree to purchase and cover any debts, presumably adjusting price.

Finally the FCO could not be seen to warn U.K. buyers that Spanish banks aren’t playing by the rules, international incident.

The onus is on the buyer and on the prospective buyers lawyer to establish what if any debts are still attached to any property NOT the FCO.

I understand your concerns Hugh man and thank you for your responses, but my point is that the FCO website is already forewarning and advising potential purchasers of aspects to be aware of when purchasing in Spain. So there is no reason why they should not advise buyers to be aware that the debt in Spain is attached to the property making it an ESSENTIAL requirement for them or their conveyancing lawyer to attain details of the accumulated debt associated with the property prior to purchase.

My point being that all too many potential purchasers of Banks repossessed properties will be in complete ignorance of a potential large debt being attached to the property, and in ignorance of the fact that Banks might not have been paying the community fees associated with the property for a significant period of time and that they could be passing the responsibility on to the unsuspecting buyer.

This website after all is meant to be informative and educational. 

Given that advice, as you rightly say, once they are aware of this, they could well decide to accept the debt and use it as a bargaining tool to attaining a better price. BUT THEY NEED TO BE MADE AWARE OF THE PRINCIPLE OF ACCUMULATED DEBT BEING ATTACHED TO THE PROPERTY IN THE FIRST PLACE, (especially given the current  ploys by the Banks to avoid their financial responsibilities in this regard.) Forewarned is forearmed....

P.s. I completely agree with your observation “Perhaps the Law should oblige any new owner either through purchase OR repossession to advise the Land Registry, immediately.”

This message was last edited by ads on 10/11/2018.

Perhaps you could advise what is the purpose of engaging a Spanish lawyer when purchasing a property?

Do Spanish lawyers need training by the FCO?

To repeat the FCOs website is supposed to be informative and educational to assist those considering purchasing property in Spain.

Informative yes, but just how many buyers consult the FCO website when considering a purchase of what they consider their dream home in the sun.

Many new buyers don’t even check out sites like EOS before signing on the dotted line, there are many informative online  sources to check for overseas purchases, research is paramount.

It is oft said that many Brits leave their brains at home when considering a property purchase abroad.

Which is precisely why, their purchasing lawyers need to advise them of the advantages and pitfalls and if they do their job thoroughly there should be no problem in finding out what debt if any is still attached.

The fact that there is sadly no guarantee that all law firms in Spain are reputable and independent, that Bar Associations have not taken action against members who brought their profession into disrepute, that the Spanish conveyancing system is so different so complex and beset by so many problems relating to lack of mandatory controls in place to protect ( as demonstrated in this thread), coupled with a justice system so under resourced with inconsistent rulings across varying regions, is it any wonder that all those caught up in this scenario need a source of infomation that they can trust. But even this relies upon goodwill and commitment to help one another through the maze,  with common purpose to try and gain a fair balance of consumer protection against Banks that are increasingly demonstrating such scant  regard for compliance and ethical behaviour. 

 But ultimately this has become so reliant on the Supreme Court to make fair judgements and rulings, which after all too many years was thankfully happening....

So.... when you start to witness even that unravel at such a late stage in the fight for justice, just at the point when accountability was being achieved  to make Banks fully accountable for their many unregulated failings, it becomes the last straw.

Hence the urgent need for good law firms to step up to the mark not only in protection of their client base but also for the justice system itself.  

Plus the urgent need to recognise that all citizens are being placed at risk by the behaviour of the Banks.

This is not a time for division and alienating rhetoric between citizens, but for everyone concerned and for those sufficiently concerned by the impact on a society that deserves better.....to recognise what is happening here. Hence the need to use all means to educate and formulate a positive way through this deteriorating scenario,

A long way to go , yes , but by working together to educate and inform those entrusted with the protection of rights, such organisations as Rights International Spain, progress should be possible...

P.s. As for the FCO they too can do their bit to inform and advise in the interim,  but again it depends on feedback from those in a position of authority, as new circumstances arise

Why have the Bar Associations not taken action against members who brought their profession into disrepute?

Likewise, why are banks paying such scant regard to compliance and ethical behaviour and are so far removed from the society that they serve? 

Why is there no adequate regulatory banking structure (Bank of Spain) in place to regulate Spanish Banks, to ensure that Banks complied with law providing inalienable rights, that mortgage provision complied with standards that outlaw illegal clauses, that Banks  pay their debts  in a  timely manner, that they register their ownership,  etc.

 It’s so apparent now that many of their mission statements have become rhetoric alone and far removed from the compliance expected of them.

We could all go on and on but what is important is finding a positive way forward through this quagmire of unaccountability at so many levels.... and that depends ultimately NOW upon a trusted and consistent legal structure which provides legal certainty, is fair, and adheres to the rule of law for all those currently striving for justice and compliance.

As for all other aspects to this scenario in the interim it requires commitment from within, to restore trust and faith in Bar Associations, to enhance accreditation schemes for real estate professionals, to find ways of closing the loopholes in the conveyancing system that sadly allows banks to behave in this way... 

So frustrating for all if we are honest.

Likewise, why are banks paying such scant regard to compliance and ethical behaviour and are so far removed from the society that they serve? 

I’m an ex banker and have become ashamed at the scant regard for their customers that exists now.

Why is there no adequate regulatory banking structure (Bank of Spain) in place to regulate Spanish Banks, to ensure that Banks complied with law providing inalienable rights, that mortgage provision complied with standards that outlaw illegal clauses, that Banks  pay their debts  in a  timely manner, that they register their ownership,  etc.

There is a Regulatory structure but just like in the US in 2007 it is toothless, in the face of power and greed of banks.

 It’s so apparent now that many of their mission statements have become rhetoric alone and far removed from the compliance expected of them.

Totally agree, mush of the rhetoric is BS these days.

We could all go on and on but what is important is finding a positive way forward through this quagmire of unaccountability at so many levels.... and that depends ultimately NOW upon a trusted and consistent legal structure which provides legal certainty, is fair, and adheres to the rule of law for all those currently striving for justice and compliance.

The legal profession like bankers do not cover themselves in glory in a dog eat dog world that has become a buyer beware scenario.

As for all other aspects to this scenario in the interim it requires commitment from within, to restore trust and faith in Bar Associations, to enhance accreditation schemes for real estate professionals, to find ways of closing the loopholes in the conveyancing system that sadly allows banks to behave in this way... 

So frustrating for all if we are honest.

My experience, certainly in Spain is to extract as much money as possible from what the locals call the Invaders, it is not necessarily corrupt but the way business is done. As Kavanagh suggests, don’t like tough.

A bit like the EU approach to Brexit, but that’s another story.

Such a conclusion based upon your first hand experiences and being considered “ invaders” and scapegoats for being “ ripped off”, hardly inspires confidence in the ability of people to live in harmony with mutual respect when relocating to Spain, I’m sure there would be many who would look upon their first hand experiences in quite a different light however, Each to their own.

So sad when you consider in this thread context that it is the Banks scant regard for people and their role in society, regardless of nationality, who appear to be exacerbating the problem, which seems strange, as you would have thought that by coming together to find solutions to the benefit of all would be a positive cohesive and harmonising way forward....

P.s. I live in hope ( maybe naive to some) that by gaining clarification of the  realities relating to the complex system in Spain, that it will at least provide some understanding of the many loopholes that the Banks are exploiting, of the potential to safeguard professions from within, by trusted accredited schemes, with a view to restoring trust which will benefit Spain and its people going forward, and at the same time minimise misunderstandings and abusive practice that can lead to division. 

Foreigners ‘’non Spanish nationals’’ are considered outsiders and are only tolerated and welcomed for what can be extracted from them. Spain has 21.1% of its population living below the poverty level while foreigners are perceived to enjoy a comfortable lifestyle in pleasant surroundings along the coasts of Spain. Is it no surprise the Spanish locals have no sympathy for whatever is extracted from expats by their own institutions? 

Of course if expats did not exist Spain’s population of poverty would be even greater, but people always tend to have a blinkered view. 

Sorry Ads, like you, many of us live in hope of collective harmony and assistance but sadly as Kavanagh suggests, we are considered the wealthy and priviliged in Spain and possibly other countries.

Im not suggesting it’s the only reason but you can begin to see why nationalities group together in foreign countries, social, cultural and national  integration is not the easy and sincere lifestyle that many would have us believe.

I bought in a majority owned Spanish area but I can see why many create ex pat communities.

i think you will also find in society everywhere the perceived gaps between rich & poor almost creates a dog eat dog society in many places.

But these are whole new discussions.

I would also repeat that there is a big market for Forums and Wensites which warn against the pitfalls of “The Dream” but for the FCO to warn prospective buyers against the actions of Spanish banks and others in Communities would spark an international incident to challenge Gibraltar.

The Law still states that banks will pay current year plus 3 previous years fees or charges so warning about delaying when that happens may be churlish to new buyers however frustrating it is to current owners.

Hugh

The fact is that any debt is attached to the property so buyers need to remain aware of this, but I also wonder if they could be liable for the backdated IBI that local authorities have been denied by the Banks? This needs to be identified too.

There are already details on the FCO website which is intended to make buyers aware of the facts associated with purchase, so that they can remain informed prior to purchase.

I don’t understand why you think this is any different to the advice already published on the website.

Many have already stated that people need to know essential details prior to purchasing and that is what this website is trying to do. It isn’t saying don’t buy....it’s saying these are the facts associated with purchase in Spain. 

Why would anyone deny people of the fact that accumulating debt associated with Banks (or local authority for that matter if this is applicable) is attached to the property?

Gibralter and international incidents doesn’t come into this  ...it’s availing people of the facts relating to purchase, that’s all. Surely that’s imperative these days to keep people informed?

Surely it’s your lawyer’s job and duty to sort all these things out, that is the whole purpose of employing a lawyer. The moment the purchaser starts interfering with legal procedures that they know nothing about are they then responsible and their lawyer is absolved?

Surely, purchasers pays lawyer end of. Or are you saying you cannot trust a lawyer to do the job or they are not capable?