25 Brexit need to knows ( Martin Lewis)

 I can testify that most remainers I have met are very reasonable people from all walks in life who believe the referendum result was fraudulently obtained.

Not very reasonable if they cannot see that the lies in favour of remain and project fear where far more dishonest than anything in the leave campaign.

 The economy would be stable, investment strong and young people would have a future to work, study and live in Europe.

Yep, seems just like the economic situation we have now, having voted out.

No reason why you should not work in Europe if we eventually leave. Both my wife and I did before we joined.

Remain believers would respect the 'democratic result' much more had the campaign to leave the EU been honest and not built on lies and misleading propaganda. The funding by Arron Banks has proved to have exceeded the legal expenditure rules and he has yet to explain satisfactorily where £8m of the cash he spent came from.

Micky. You know that is a lot of Guardian B........s. Far more was spent by the remain campaign than all the sources provided to the leave campaign.

A referendum is a once in a lifetime occurance. the referendum was endlessly debated. You would have had to have been a hermit not to have understood the issues. Remain told endless lies. Foreign governments and heads of state (including the US) and international bodies disgracefully intervened on remain's behalf.  It was the biggest democratic vote we have seen and leave won depite the barrage. It's worth saying that again leave won.

 Mickyfinn

‘’Don't you just love the hypothetical.’’ 

It’s a straight forward question. No answer says it all.

This issue has now become almost a religious belief.  Arguing against belief with any rationale is pointless. The only practical method of resolving it in order to try and bring the nation together is another vote. The current situation is the worst of all worlds. I notice posters on here who are pro-leave offer only one option that of leave presumably without any deal whatever. In doing that the consequences for the country are enormous. Not just for the economy but for future political stability.

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 Mickyfinn

It is only a religious belief in your mind and no one else’s. What was the possible purpose of ever having a referendum if leave was never an acceptable result? What is the purpose of repeating the whole event again because the democratic result did not suit the minority?

You refuse to answer a previous straight forward question, but state you left the UK years ago with no intention of ever returning. You state you are taking part in campaigns and demonstrations, presumably from some Spanish seaside town.

It seems to me that the referendum was just the first stage of a process. Perhaps "Remain believers" would accept the result more easily if there was subsequently a clear and coherent plan following it on exactly how the UK should leave and what the future plan for the country might be. My personal preference would have been for the UK to remain a part of the EU, but I could accept the so-called democratic decision to leave if the government, parliament, anyone in fact, could step up to the plate and show some leadership and convince me that there is a reason to be optimistic about the future. But the sh1t-shower of politicians we have running the show should surely be enough to convince even the most ardent leaver that it's all turned into a complete balls-up, and we'd be better off forgetting the whole thing. 

Hardened leavers will say the UK should just leave with no-deal, and take our chances that it will work out OK. But apart from the odd Latin speaker and weird pub owner, nobody really seems to believe that this is a good idea, and it just seems a bit reckless to gamble - particularly when it's hard to understand why leavers are so convinced the country is such a disaster that it's worth taking any risk just to see if things improve. Is it really so bad? I could ramble on for quite a while here about how bad Spain is, and how much better the UK is in comparison in many ways. I'm pretty certain most people who voted to leave because they felt disillusioned and angry about the state of the country won't notice any discernible improvement in their lives as a result of leaving the EU. The same problems and issues will still bug them. it reminds me of countless brits I've met over the years who moved to Spain to get away from the problems in their lives back in the UK - only to find that relocating didn't solve their problems; in fact, in many cases, they just amplified them, and they pretty much always end up returning to the UK, but usually end up much worse off than before they left. My old acquaintance who used to have a bar in Spain is a perfect case in point. Back in the UK now, living on benefits, very angry and pi55ed off: Voted leave. Will his life suddenly improve?.....

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Well said Roberto, that just about sums it up. Sadly it is the annoying ‘’TEDDY OUT OF THE PRAM’’ brigade that is winding many people up and causing hostilities. Most people have now lost interest and could not care less, but some extremists just won’t leave it alone, they are their own worst enemy.

I live in Spain and am a remainder, but I have not spit my dummy out.

Jarvi, your latest comments I find particularly enlightening. I'd be interested to know what your solution to the Irish border issue is.

Roberto

As I am not a politician and nor are you, it doesnt matter what I or you think or any solutions I put forward as it makes no difference. In case you missed it the GFA agreeement has been broken by the new IRA a few days ago, and my comments refer to your friend and a few others who do not accept a democratic vote because they lost it, and it is getting boring reading their same old arguments about staying in the EU. As for things in the UK and why people voted leave, you are just guessing as to their reasons, and if it makes you feel better to think that most people who voted to leave did so because of the state of the country and that they were disillusioned so be it. Perhaps some of the other people in Europe are disillusioned with their country or maybe perhaps they dont like being ruled and taken for a ride by the EU.

This issue has now become almost a religious belief. 

Hasn't it just, Micky. Your self analysis is spot on.

Arguing against belief with any rationale is pointless.

Don't we just know it. But we thought somewhere in the depths of your mind you might be open to reason. You are right, it is pointless. But someone has to refute your nonsense - others might believe it.

Not just for the economy but for future political stability.

Unfortunately in this instance you may be on to something but not in the way you mean. A re-run of the referendum might well be a cause of future political instability.

However if we fight the forthcoming EU elections and the Brexit party does well it should knock that eventuality on the head!

Jarvi, you say your "comments refer to my friend and a few others who do not accept a democratic vote". I don't know which friend you're referring to, because I only mentioned an acquaintance who used to own a bar in Spain. He lost heavily on it and returned to the UK. He voted to leave the EU, and when asked why, said it was because of "all the bloody EU rules in the bar", which makes no sense whatsoever. You're right, I don't know why the other 17,399,000 or whatever voted to leave, but I've heard enough similarly non-sensical explanations from ordinary folk to last me a lifetime. And you're probably right when you say "it doesnt matter what I or you think or any solutions I put forward as it makes no difference", since, as you say, neither of us are politicians. The worrying thing as far as I'm concerned, though, is that nobody seems to have any solutions - least of all our politicians.

tteedd: I don't quite follow your reasoning. If the Brexit party do well in the EU elections, how will that help bring political stability to the UK? Surely, once the UK has left the EU, it will become irrelevant how many seats they won anyway? Or do you suppose that Farage will become the next PM in a landlside General Election?

Democratic societies have always functioned with a political divide. Usually, that divide is between the well-heeled middle class and the not so well off working class. Labour or Conservative. I generalise because many of both groups also support political parties of various forms for their own reasons.

However, Brexit has created a new political divide in Britain. One that is far less sustainable in terms of social cohesion and stability. Unless political leaders find an acceptable solution to it the divide will continue to tear the nation apart in a way the normal divide does not.

The electorate will in my view accept albeit grudgingly a result from a fair and free election. Free of obvious untruth or manipulation. The referendum went much further than ordinary political party propaganda. Using the fear of being swamped by immigration was unforgivable in my opinion. The remain side failed to explain the positive benefits of EU membership preferring to concentrate on the negative. Both camps failed utterly to conduct the referendum campaign in a way that resonated with the people. So fear on both sides took over. When people are afraid they act illogically and pulling up the drawbridge then takes over. 

A new referendum after so much information debate and education that is now out there allows for a more rational decision to be made. Provided the campaign is conducted fairly and of course, there is no guarantee of that. If the result is the same and the British people still vote to leave I believe most will accept it. The divide will be healed at least for a generation. 

The coming EU elections are decided on proportional representation not first past the post. Therefore the result cannot be used as an accurate barometer for a second referendum.

Perhaps Jarvi has a valid point that any opinions or anything said on this forum are worthless. I suppose there is no new information or knowledge within the thread content, only argumentative opinions which are enhanced by the bored ‘’WIND UP’’ merchants who will argue the hind legs off a donkey.

Deliberation and debate is the way you stir the soul of democracy.

Jesse Jackson
 

Yes but he had power and influence. You Mickyfinn are an irrelevant nobody just the same as the rest of us.

I thought part of the purpose of educative debate was to remain willing to listen and rationalise going forward, rather than remain fixed and entrenched in opinions?