LFO resale question

Post reply   Start new thread
:: New - Old :: Old - New

Pages: 1 |

Forum home :: Latest threads :: Search forums
The Comments
05 May 2009 12:00 AM by Zoe583 Star rating. 13 posts Send private message

any one with an answer for me ?

I read a lot about LFO for new projects ,but not a lot for resale properties ,questions i have.

Bying a resale property house ,officially urban ,in the middle of a town in Andalusia ,build more than 40 years ago ,officially connected to electricity (endesa) and water for many years already ,connected to town sewage system, IBI payed every year etc .

What are the rules for LFO for resale properties on such old properties  ? ,can the bank grant a mortage without a recent LFO ,they never asked me when they granted the mortage ,can a notary close the sale without it ?

are there any risks here bying a property like that ?how long would it take to get a new updated LFO ? if possible at all  ,or would this mean first meeting the current 2009 standard for electricity and water ,in other words having to completly renovate inmidiatly instead of renovating over time .

Zoe

 





Like 0      
05 May 2009 10:50 PM by Roberto Star rating in Torremolinos. 4551 posts Send private message

Roberto´s avatar

I doubt if LFOs even existed 40 years ago. Notary certainly won't ask for it - they rarely do for new properties.  As long as the property is properly registered etc., there's no problem.

With regard to utilities, I think you may be getting LFO confused with the boletín. This is what is needed to connect new properties to the services, and without a LFO, you can't get the boletín. But if the property is already connected, it's a bit different. Changing the water contract into your name shouldn't be a problem, but on properties more than 20 years old now, you may well need a new boletín in order to get the electric contract changed in to your name. To get a boletín, you may need to update the wiring - possibly a complete rewire. Many people don't bother changing the name on the contract, but that means you will not be able to change billing details (direct debits) etc. If you don't mind bills in someone elses name, and paying them in cash (assuming they arrive in the post), then OK, but it's not ideal.

Hope this helps.



_______________________

 

"Get your facts first, then you can distort them as you please"

Mark Twain

 

 

 




Like 0      
06 May 2009 10:35 PM by Fairway Lawyers Star rating. 48 posts Send private message

Hi,

the answer to your question is: if you have doubts as to the legality of the property, do not take any risk; even if the vendor is able to give you a copy of the LFO,  check the legality  through a formal query at the town hall. The query should include these points:a.- that there are no files for irregularities. b.-   that there are no outstanding obligations. c.- that the properties are more than 4 years old and that the actions to punish/reinstate the legality have expired. The bank surveyor will be satisfied with this certification.

For a broader explanation of the reasoning behind, please read below; the explanation has got three parts, as follows:

1.- LFO is a tricky concept and needs some clarification, therefore the first question would be explaining what is a LFO

2.- second question: what it is for?

3.- third: what happens in second hand properties?

And now the explanation:

1.- The town hall controls building activities in a two-fold process:

- at the beginning, before starting the building, through the "licencia de obras", also called planning permission or building permit.

- in the end, once the building is finished, through the "licencia de primera ocupación",LFO. 

Originally the LFO was JUST the permission granted by the town hall in order to confirm that the building had been finished according to the project which was considered when the  planning permission was granted. In other words, it was the official confirmation from the town hall saying "ok, there are no irregularities". Example: if a developer has got planning permission for 45 houses and does 46, then the 1st Occupancy permission is not granted, as the result is not coincident as the original project. the same happens if there are relevant differences in sizes and floors.

At the same time, the town hall also issued a permission called "cédula de habitabilidad", which was considered as the document saying that the building meets the necessary safety and inhabitancy standards. Please note that it is a different concept from the LFO.

Once the regional governments became competent in planning issues, some started issuing regulations MERGING these two concepts into one single permission, also called LFO. Consequently, in places as Andalucia the LFO comprises both the cedula de habitabilidad and the strictly speaking LFO. In Cataluña and other places, the LFO was just the LFO and the Cedula de Habitabilidad exists as an independent permissions. Therefore I said it was tricky. 

2.- The LFO is then the official OK from the town hall to the building. The same person/company who had applied for the planning permission is also liable for getting the LFO.

However, the old laws before 2.000 did not currently consider necessary that these permissions had to be included in the deeds, as the deed in Spain was aimed at registration of the property rights in the land registry, AND THAT'S IT. Consequently, it was perfectly possible that the notary executed a sale deed for a property which had not obtained a LFO. The result was that you might have been purchasing a property with irregularities (a shit, but YOUR shit after all), and in principle the Notary had no liability. Of course, you had action against the Developer, but you might find yourself in trouble as the town hall would consider the new owner as liable for those obligations that the developer had "forgotten" to do. For instance, A purchases a property from Developer B. No mention is made of the LFO. Then town hall C claims that the Developer has not respected the obligations included in the original project and permission - "a street lamp should be installed every 6 ms" - and they go against the new owner, who has not done anything wrong. Not that the LFO is an absolute guarantee either, as the town halls usually incur in delays when recepting the public property works...

Anyway, the laws provided for the LFO as necessary document to contract the supplies. After all, it was logic to request proof of legality before granting water and electricity. However, the problem is that the old laws did not provide for an specific punishment if such rule was not respected. As a consequence, the general praxis was that the water and electricity were connected without first occupancy permission by the supply companies. In many cases, a mere copy of the application for the LFO was considered as sufficient in order to get water and electricity connected. 

As you see, the essential value of the LFO was "disregarded"  and  devaluated as in the end you could perfectly purchase the property, sign the deeds, having them registered in the land registry and connecting the supplies. Now the regional and national laws have innovated and since 2001 the notaries have to attach a copy of the LFO to the deeds and the supply companies do not allow the connection unless this document is in place with brand new properties, there are specific fines to guarantee that this time the law is properly complied with.  

3.- The town halls and the regional goverments are obliged to achieve compliance with laws on buildings and therefore they are supposed to control this activity. The reality is different, as in many cases many buildings are started, and/or finished without permission, or simply exceeding the scope of the original permission. Examples: A starts a building without planning permission, A starts with planning permission for two floors but in the end he adds a basement which is not in the original plans and it is probably impossible to legalize, and therefore he simply does not apply for LFO, A gets a minor works reform and then he demolishes the whole building and erects a new one, of course he does not bother in applying for LFO, A gets a permission for an storage room and builds a house instead, etc...there are so many things which can be done, that it is impossible to tell you all.

However, as some say, "time is a healer", and in legal terms the competent administrations have got 4 years since the works are COMPLETELY FINISHED in order to take action and punish the builder or whoever is involved there, including the new and innocent owner, through demolitions, fines, etc. You might have heard of this deadline...well, please note that THERE ARE HIGLY RELEVANT EXCEPTIONS TO CONSIDER: Green areas, protected land,...Each case is different and a proper investigation is highly advisable to avoid unpleasant surprises.

Consequently, there are many properties which were built or altered without permission but due to the lack of activity from the town hall and regional government, they cannot be attacked. Please note that it does not mean exactly that they are legal, they remain in a gray area called "fuera de ordenación", which means something like "out of order". There are particularities in this situations, such us some restrictions to add or improve building areas, lack of consideration of some values for expropiation purposes, but in general terms we can say that it is not going to be demolished and that it is "safe".

Consequently, in order to check the legality of a building whose LFO is either missing or unknown, it is highly advisable to forward a formal query at the town hall. The query should include these points:

a.- that there are no files for irregularities.  

b.-   that there are no outstanding obligations.

c.- that the properties are more than 4 years old and that the actions to punish/reinstate the legality have expired.

 





Like 0      
07 May 2009 12:07 AM by Roberto Star rating in Torremolinos. 4551 posts Send private message

Roberto´s avatar

Phew. That's enough to put anyone off buying a property in Spain! Perhaps it would have been enough to just leave it at "if you have doubts as to the legality of the property, do not take any risk"!

By the way, you did notice that the property in question is in a town centre and was built more than 40 years ago, didn't you?



_______________________

 

"Get your facts first, then you can distort them as you please"

Mark Twain

 

 

 




Like 0      
07 May 2009 11:05 AM by Lawbird Star rating. 59 posts Send private message

Lawbird´s avatar

Dear Zoe,

I doubt you'll have any problems. A LFO is almost never required in resales as it applies mainly to off plans.

The bank will not request a LFO on a 40 year old property, don't worry. You have all the utilities connected already.

A Notary can always authorise completion on properties that do not have a LFO issued. Another matter being if its recommendable or not to complete on a property without a LFO. As a general rule it isn't, but there are exceptions.

In your particluar case you shouldn't be worrying on this matter on such an old town house unless of course it's been pulled down and rebuilt or something of the sort recently which you may not be disclosing on your post.

Please read our article on Licence of First Occupation if you want to dwelve further on this subject.

 

 

 


 



This message was last edited by Lawbird on 07/05/2009.

_______________________
Lawbird Spanish Lawyers http://www.lawbird.com



Like 0      
11 May 2009 3:12 PM by Zoe583 Star rating. 13 posts Send private message

Dear everybody

i would like to thank everybody for the input ,it was very helpfull !!

I have obtained a query from city hall stating the suggested and even more ,so as it is already properly registered at the register,s office and cadastro office ,everything seems to be ok with this.

As to the electrics we might have a problem here but we will be renovating anyhow ,means only we have to maybe speed things up ,if that is already possible in Spain anyhow :)

thank you once again

Zoe

next stop a good english speaking spanish architect and builder ..





Like 0      
11 May 2009 6:13 PM by Rixxy Star rating in San Pedro. 2010 posts Send private message

Rixxy´s avatar

 Good luck Zoe - where are you buying?



_______________________

Quite frankly m'dear, I don't give a damn!

www.herbalmarbella.com




Like 0      

Pages: 1 |

Post reply    Start new thread


Previous Threads

How is the current economic climate affecting Spain? - 2 posts
Golf at Alcaidesa - 0 posts
Post-completion problems - 1 posts
Holiday rental required Benalmadena or Fuengirola - 1 posts
Dictatorship or what?? - 17 posts
Builders Water Supply - 8 posts
rentals - 15 posts
Make sure you get all your appliance guarantees - 0 posts
Collecting Certificate of Habitation from Town Hall - 1 posts
Does a bank guarantee allow us to successfully reclaim back the deposit we've paid? - 6 posts
KIDS QUAD BIKE FOR SALE - 0 posts
Want to swap Costa de la Luz apartment for property in South West UK - 1 posts
Tooway, The way Forward - 0 posts
We have not signed our contract. Is it still legal ? - 12 posts
It's back..... Part 2 - 9 posts
small claims court - 4 posts
small claims court - 3 posts
Royal Doulton Dinner Service - 5 posts
Hi everyone, yet another newbie in deep doo-doo - 20 posts
Forum Help - 10 posts
driving on someones insurance - 0 posts
Decisions, decisions - 3 posts
Community Pools - 3 posts
Lawyer not providing final costings after completion. - 3 posts
It's BACK.......... - 20 posts

Number of posts in this thread: 7

DISCLAIMER:  All opinions posted on these message boards are the opinion solely of the poster and do not necessarily reflect the opinion of Eye on Spain, its servants or agents.


1 |
Our Weekly Email Digest
Name:
Email:


This site uses cookies. By continuing to browse you are agreeing to our use of cookies. More information here. x