President

I live just outside Alicante on a community of around 100 properties. At present we have a president who has to be said is diabolical, he wont answer his doorbell and wont answer his phone, consequently no one can talk to him about any problems.

We are having our agm in a couple of months and I have been told he is going to stand again, other residents and I don't want him in again but as usual no one wants to take over, to cut a long story short I am thinking of standing against him but I don't have a clue what the job entails and how difficult it is.

Could some one out there give me some pointers please IE what the job entails, if I need to be retired and what the art is of being a good president. any advice would be very helpful to me.

Many thanks in advance.

Hi Ollie

In your case i would first get in contact with your administartor he should give you all the answers.

It´s difficult to answer the question of what a president´s position is like as i´m sure all on this site will have a different answer, as not 2 commnity´s are alike, however i can say for sure you don´t have to be retired just a home owner, we came to an agrement at our last AGM that the position is best filled by a resident as apposed to a non resident but still doe´s not stop a non resident being a president.

The art of a president well it´s the easiest job in the world as you can never be in the wrong, why, the president carrys out his  duties on behalf of the community, who in turn tell him/her what to do.

Have a look at Horizontal Property Law, but please remember that this is only a small guide and doe´s not give all the sub sections or judgnents passed over the years, if people not qualified in this field (though they think they are and have a background in another country) why do we all employe a proffesional in this field, but a basic understanding doe´s help.

Go for it and have a go ot´s only for a year.

Regards

Nitram

Hi Nitramm

Thanks for your reply. As I say we are fed up with our president so I thought I would have a go and other people have said they would vote for me, but as time gets near I am starting to get nervous about it, I just want to be good at it for everyone

Thanks again

If you're interested and can be bothered to read them, I wrote a series of articles on this site a few years ago about my own experience. The first one is here, and if you like it and want to read more, scroll down at the end for links to subsequent parts (I think there were seven)

If you decide to go for it - well, good luck!

It's a truly thankless task to take on, but if it means you can sort out your community then step up to the challenge!

Also, if you can't talk to your president then go via the administrator.  If that doesn't work then stop paying your fees, that should grab their attention!

Justin

I've come back to this thread, because it's been preying on my mind. Because in a couple of weeks time we have our AGM. And I think it's almost certain I will wind up being forced to accept the presidency again.

I just had a glance at the articles I wrote after the first time round, and I detect a semblance of enthusiasm in them for the job, which I don't recall ever having. Maybe writing about it was cathartic. Maybe it was simply the satisfaction of having survived to tell the tale at all - like looking back on a nasty car crash that you survived, that doesn't seem so nasty in retrospect. This time, I know with absolute certainty that there will not be the slightest trace of enthusiasm, and I very much doubt I'll be writing about it again. I fully intend to be, in Ollie's words, diabolical, to not answer my doorbell or 'phone, and as for the "art" of a good president, so sorry Nitram, it's the hardest job in the world because you can never be right. No matter what you do, someone will complain, even if it's what someone, everyone, else wanted you to do.

If your community has serious issues that are not being addressed, that perhaps affect the overall enjoyment or habitability of your property, or its value, or there is evidence that funds are being misused, then rather than complain and criticise how others handle things, maybe the best course is to volunteer your services and tackle things head on. But you could be biting off more than you can chew. Getting Things Done, in my experience, is one of the hardest things to achieve. If the problems (and every community has them, minor or major) are not so grave, then the job should be a walk in the park, as long as you have a competent and professional administrator. But then, why bother taking the job on if you don't have any real grievances? Maybe you just fancy a challenge?  Why not take up Flamenco then? Most of us would like an easy life, a peaceful life. Unless you have the model community (it doesn't exist), the life of the president is unlikely to be either.

I hear about many problem communities. The single biggest problem usually is, or stems from, money. Or rather, the lack of it. Getting Things Done can actually be quite easy if there are unlimited, or even at a push, sufficient funds available, but Getting People To Pay is another very difficult thing to achieve. This is partly because everybody has differing opinions on what is a priority - not everybody will wish to Pay for the same Things. A compromise must always be reached.

So, in a nutshell, the Holy Grail of a good president, is first, to get everyone to PAY, and second, to get everyone to AGREE on how to use the money. If you can achieve these, the rest should be easy. If not - take up Flamenco.

If you feel you can make a difference go for it. Be prepared however, here is my own personal experience and one I have gladly walked away from.  I wrote this for myself, to get relief and put it behind me if I can. It can be a very rewarding "job" and it depends on your personality how you respond to the challenges - because there will be plenty.

Being the President of an Urbanisation in Spain

So you have feelings of altruism, you have served voluntarily on other bodies and you think you can contribute. You enjoy improving your environment and the environment of others and you give of your time willingly and without pay. 

You stand for election and suddenly you are the person that is responsible for all the problems, the person everyone complains to, the person that doesn’t do things well enough. You have a very lonely job even if the administrator is excellent.

But how can it be lonely with all of these people around you? It’s simple, the majority are on holiday and they do not want to have to think about the rights and wrongs of events that take place. They prefer to come and enjoy themselves and they do not want to involve themselves unless they have something to complain about.

You eventually learn not to speak about what you feel passionate about. That’s boring and not acceptable. You are not fun any more. Putting your responsibilities aside is impossible. Nobody wants to know you, the person, they want to know the president.

If you are thinking of taking this mantle think again. 

In an urbanisation of around 200 apartments there are likely to be about 10 people who are supportive to the extent they tell you if they approve of what you have done or have supportive ideas that are offered in the spirit of helping. Around another 30 who will support without too much thought as long as all is well. Then the critics, around 5. The rest are not really concerned too much about the community and take no part.

The 5 dominate your life. They try to influence your decision making, try to impose their own view regardless of the majority, want to be in charge but do not want the work and if they want the work one asks the question why, especially if they have a business already and even more especially if they have a business interest within the community.

To run a community, with the powers of a president in Spain, and at the same time run a business which depends on that same community, would take a very exceptional person indeed to be done in an open and honest way, above reproach. Human nature being what it is the decision making will inevitably be influenced by one’s own clients needs. Who do you put first when your living depends on it? 

The most unpleasant type is the owner who does not live in the community but wants a position of power. He knows everything and is not slow to say so. He knows the law and uses it and bends it to his desires. He has his own truth and is not slow to tell his own truth. He remembers things the way he believes he heard them without questioning his own recollection or the minutes or other people. This is the person who does not ask questions first but attacks with full force knowing that he and only he is right. He is not economical with words, is insulting, rude, offensive, defamatory in his comments and does not hesitate to send them to as many people as possible. However, if you should once step out of line and say how you feel yourself you will receive a lawyers letter by the next post.

Then there is the promoter’s family and friends. If you are unfortunate enough to have them as owners then you can expect a fight on your hands if there are problems within the urbanisation that are clearly the fault of the promoter. Various devious means will be used to ensure they do not have to answer in court for their immoral behaviour. Their refusal to accept responsibility for what is clearly their fault. Their readiness to blame everyone but themselves. 

Some owners appear to be friends and then turn and bite you. They decide it is more in  their interests to be seen to be supportive of the opposition. They are moaners and groaners and will listen to the “popular” accusations without questioning whether they might be true or not.

The silent majority are for the most part just that - silent. Many never visit and rely on reports and newsletters to know what is going on. 

The good side is the real friends one makes and the support from good decent people. However, the balance is a delicate one and I do not know of a president who left the position without a sigh of relief! 

As you can see Ollie, like as I said no 2 communities are the same.
I know our community is completely different to others and don’t have the problems others have, why, if I can explain our community you will see why.
First our promoter spent time living in the u.k hence he knew what people wanted, so he built the urbanization  on these lines,  500 property’s then sub divided in to 10 separate community’s hence 10 individual presidents and each community to be run how owners want to within in the law.
The Town Hall are responsible for the roads roundabouts street lighting green areas sewage drains sewage plant etc, so yes we are lucky in those respects.
Communal Poole owned by the promoter and for 5 years was free to anybody
With regards to communal elements the only things itemised and registered are external walls a cul de sac 8 lights in this cul de sac (that the community pay the bill) communal Ariel.
So as we have no expenses are fees are only €80.00 a year.

However we are a community we have a quota of participation, so as my previous questions asked on this web page regarding Techo & Suelo Sobrante hardly anybody could come back with answers as they have never heard of it, or community’s have been designed to give owners a little bit of land to build on
So yes we don’t have pools, lifts gardens staff problems etc and yes you could say I and others can’t understand other community issues, BUT we have all one thing in common Presidents

Some presidents run their community’s with
1) Fear factor (telling owners how difficult it is 24 hours a day no holidays)
2) Power factor (I´m in charge and I´ll run it how I want to run it)
3) Control freaks (I´m in control what I say goes)
4) I´m important factor (I´m the president)
5) It´s a complicated position (you have to study legal books)
 6) I have knowledge of this position. (The administrator told me something the other day I did not know and I´m not going to tell anybody else)
But there are laws laid down to help community’s recoup community fees, criminal action can be taken if funds are being misused there is guidance how long a president should stand in this position and if a president does not want to be a president after his term they stand down, nobody forces somebody to do something they do not want to, and if somebody doe’s do it again it comes back to either one of the 5 I listed above though they won’t admit it, or they are just good eggs

If a existing president stands down and nobody volunteers or you don’t have a system in place on who takes on this position, year on year, go to court and a judge will decide for you, and then see those owners who criticise you, and it will stop present presidents moaning about the job they took on,

What makes me laugh is you never hear the Spanish moan like us foreigners It´s part of Spanish life and culture, also what makes me laugh in the ´.u.k if you buy a flat on leasehold don’t you pay management fees ¿, fees are set, the owner of the land collects money off the owners clean the gardens roads lighting etc, did any owners out there go to their AGM EGM were on the committee did not pay fees

Conclusion presidents are in this position, to work on behalf of the community who voted them in to the position, to do as the community wanted and not what they (presidents) want

O WAIT A MINUTE DID PRESIDENTS NOT VOLUNTEER FOR THIS POSITION AND DID NOT DO THEIR HOMEWORK ON WHAT THE POSITION INVOLVED OR THE POSSIBLE CONSEQUENCES  OR IS THERE A PRESIDENT MAFIA OR PRESS GANG  OUT THERE WE ARE NOT AWARE OF

The choice is yours
Nitram
   

 

Even if you 'volunteer' to be a Presidente, you have ABSOLUTELY NO IDEA what it entails until you are in the middle of it all and just when you think you are learning to live with it, the whole concept will change one way or the other!!

dorisjmay....I LOVE your post, it's sooooooooooo true.

Justin ("It's a truly thankless task") has been president. Dorisjmay ("I do not know of a president who left the position without a sigh of relief! ") has been president. Karensun ("you have ABSOLUTELY NO IDEA what it entails") has been president (or first lady). Roberto (read my articles) has been president.

Nitram ("yes you could say I and others can’t understand other community issues, BUT we have all one thing in common Presidents") I can only presume has not been president. Yes, I could say you do not understand. You may have a president, but it sounds like there the similarities end.

1) If your annual fees are only €80, it's highly unlikely you have any non-payers. First major problem overcome.

2) If €80 a year per owner covers the expenses of maintaining communal facilities, then with all due respect, you clearly and by your own admission do not have a community that bears much if any resemblance to most others. What, if anything, does your president actually have to do? Nothing by the sound of it. Second major problem overcome.

A couple of other points:

"there are laws laid down to help community’s recoup community fees, criminal action can be taken if funds are being misused " True. And we all know how slow & tortuous the justice system is. I think it is a little naiive to trivialise these issues. Non-payment of fees and misuse of funds can literally cripple a community. Essential services become neglected. The individual's property devalues.

"nobody forces somebody to do something they do not want to"......."nobody volunteers or you don’t have a system in place on who takes on this position, year on year, go to court and a judge will decide for you" Actually, the Horizontal Law is very clear on this. If nobody volunteers and no other system has been agreed upon, names go in a hat (metaphorically speaking of course) and someone is appointed. ALL owners are eligible, no excuses. No need to go to court. The opposite in fact is the case. If you want to be absolved of your duties (which are obligatory) you must have a good reason, and must ask a judge to anul your presidency and appoint someone else.

"What makes me laugh is you never hear the Spanish moan like us foreigners" I hear them LOUD and CLEAR! "It´s part of Spanish life and culture"....."in the u.k if you buy a flat on leasehold don’t you pay management fees ¿, fees are set, the owner of the land collects money off the owners clean the gardens roads lighting etc, did any owners out there go to their AGM EGM were on the committee did not pay fees". Yes, perhaps you've hit on the problem there; a difference in culture, or at least custom & practice. In the UK, you pay management (community by any other name) fees, and yes, the management company carries out all the necessary maintenance. How often do you hear of people not paying, or the management company not doing it's job in a professional and accountable way? The president's (secretary, or treasurer) job is basically just to once a year check the accounts etc. It should be the same here. Sadly, when there is an inherant culture of corruption and shoddy, unprofessional working practices, the president's job becomes somewhat more tricky. Adminstrators are inefficient & unreliable, contractors are lazy and dishonest, the neighbours are dissatisfied - and it's YOUR fault, because, hey! you're president.

dorisjmay....I LOVE your post, it's sooooooooooo true - well said Karensun!

Our community is in its 3rd year. I have not actually been President but I am in my 2nd term as Vice President working with a Spanish President. I took on this job full of optimism and enthusiasm expecting to be able to create a dream community. The optimism has long gone but I agreed to stay for another year in the hope that we actually can achieve a bit more of what we had hoped to acheive in year one.

There are positives: I have enjoyed working with my Spanish neighbours. Going with them to the town hall on behalf of the community discussing issues with the community lawyer are interesting experiences and when we actually achieve things it is satisfying.

We have been threatened with legal action and accused of everything from corruption to incompetence. This unfortunately puts most decent people off getting involved. Someone has to do it and, Ollie, if you feel you can make a differerence by all means have a go. My only advice is you need the support of your partner (if you've got one)  as they will inevitably be effected.

davmunster...................... 'My only advice is you need the support of your partner (if you've got one)  as they will inevitably be affected'.....................ANOTHER trueism !!

Go for it Ollie, don't be put off if you feel you can make a difference in your Community and good luck to you ( and I mean that ). just thicken up your skin ( a LOT ) and remember you are a nice person regardless of what they say!!

Ollie, in spite of my own somewhat negative posts, I have to say davmunster and Karensun make excellent points; you can make a difference if you have the determination and guts to have a go, and you will certainly learn more about Spain & it's people, and it's a good way to practice and improve your Spanish  and feel just that little bit more "integrated" by taking part.

And dorisjmay, I forgot:  When's the book coming out?

Nitram is the president

Yes we do have non payers

As i said our community is different to others, as i also  said we only have communal walls, to stop bickering between owners and to live in harmoney with each other,  when we constituted the community we decided that we maintain our own walls.

With regards to cul de sac that has exclusive accsess for those living in it and the lighting that should be run by a sub committee of our community we ALL decided as a community to chip in with electric bill and if and when it happens to look after the road, so yes don´t do a lot really  what should a president do if the owners are happy and want a quiet life.

Surley if there are misuse of funds questions must be asked by who is actually in control of communal funds, if this has been picked up by owners why has nobody challenged the president and administrator.

If you have a non payer and there is a amount outstanding why have a community not gone to court and had  a Embargo been put on the property, remember the community will recoup any court case fees from the defaulter, the longer it goes on the more a community goes into debt and community propertys devalues.

I go into see my adminstrator every 2 months to check on communal fees by owners have been paid, and to see if they (adminstrator ) are paying our bills, at this time i also obtain a bank statment,

If a administrator who is working for you (the community) who you employed, who you the community voted for and  are not carrying out their dutys to your satisfaction SACK THEM at your next AGM and go somewhere else, if you have a really good reason of misconduct against your adminstrator go to the Administrator of Fincas their governing body and make a formal complaint.

If your work contractors are not performing get rid of them, with so much unemployment surley there are some good companys and workers out there.

This goes back to my previous thread

Some presidents run their community’s with

2) Power factor (I´m in charge and I´ll run it how I want to run it)
3) Control freaks (I´m in control what I say goes)
4) I´m important factor (I´m the president)

If your  a president and you get hassle just point your owners to your AGM minuets where it´s recorded that someone or the community agreed to what they are moaning about.

Nitram 

.

"

"

Visiting your administrator every 2 months??? Nitram you are legally responsible for your community's expenditure - you have to sign the cheques! Do you only pay your suppliers every 2 months or do you  sign blank cheques for your administrator?

Gosh, it all sounds so simple - I'm almost looking forward to taking the reins again! Yes, as you say yourself, clearly your community is unlike any other I've come across. It all seems so perfect......and yet........annual fees of a mere €80 per owner, and yet still there are non-payers?? Someone is not doing their job, then. Ours are around €100 per month, and we did have a couple of persistent late payers, until we introduced a system (during my first term) to penalise them; now, thankfully, everyone pays in full and on time. First major problem overcome, but that's just the tip of the iceberg.

Like i said David, we only have electric bill for a few street lights in cul de sac, paid by Direct Debit, Liability inscurance DD, administrators fees DD, no other fees.

Yes Roberto it´s simple, for us anyway, no drastic complaints, so long as there is no Dictator of a President and you let go of the reins and let somebody else have a go, somebody can all ways go back to the position, if it´s life Threatening for them and want that POWER back.

Have we put you off Ollie

NOTHING TO IT

OR A LOT OF HASSLE

The balls in your court ,

Davmunster - I am president of our development & I only visit the administrators every 7 - 8 weeks, as I am UK based. I never sign blank cheques & they do hold on to non urgent bills when they know that I can call in to sign cheques. However, other payments are managed through internet banking or email correspondence with the Bank, so there is no real problem there.

I also thought the post by dorisjmay was spot on in it's accuracy.

Ours is a very large development of over 500 properties so it is no easy task keeping everybody happy. There are those who never have a positive word to say, yet don't bother to actually do anything themselves but they are in a very small minority. There are a great many who do say "thank you" & provide constructive feedback on issues that are affecting the development as well as making suggestions about how things could be done differently.

As for not answering the door, I value my time at my home in Spain & when I am there, I consider myself to be on holiday, so I have made it quite clear that other owners are welcome to visit socially but any non urgent issues need to be emailed to me & will be dealt with on my return home. I do give up time to visit the administrators or to discuss issues with our on site Manager but that is managed by me & fits in with what I have planned. This works very well & has not been abused by more than a couple of people, yet it has given me the opportunity of meeting a huge number of fellow owners.

We have built a good community spirit over the almost 3 years that the development has been completed & it was very clear last year following a couple of "party nights" that integration & appreciation of different cultures was greatly improved by these types of events.

Being President isn't easy but when you start to see results from your efforts, it does make it worthwhile.

Noreen

That's interesting Noreen. Our administrator still pays everything by cheque and gets the suppliers to sign a photo copy of the cheque to prove they received it which I assumed was just the way things are done in Spain.

I agree most people are appreciative of the work we do and many do say "thank you" but the small minority of who never have a positive word to say are more vocal

Thank you everyone for your posts. Part of me is saying no don't do it, then the other is saying go for it. However someone touched on the other half, she doesnt want me to do it. Im going to have to think long and hard about this.

Thanks again to everyone

Ollie