Property prices

To Roybud

I think your comments are really a bit hard on hard working agents who in the main are trying to market properties in a very hard market  and they are not all charging huge amounts of commission and I do not think that many lie to their clients as you say.

We only charge a commission of 3% of sale price and that is not a lot when you consider the amount of work and time we have to spend with clients also the large amount of  distance we have to travel to do veiwings maybe you should try it yourself.

Problem is for every good one there are 10 bad ones so it's easier to generalise.

I find this to be the case with every ex-pat I deal with in Spain such that I try to avoid doing business with them.

My pet hate at the moment is ex-pats insisting on charging VAT, always wanting to be paid in cash, and producing anything but an official VAT invoice when I know full well they have no intention of declaring the sale.

I find Spanish people are more open about it and either they don't charge you VAT or if they do they give a proper invoice and declare it.

Don't get me wrong I have no issue in paying VAT if it's correctly accounted for but not just to give some ex-pat an extra 18% profit.

I find there  are different rule for estate agents, because if you buy  anything through an agent you are going to get what you paid for and if the agent cannot get what you paid for your money is returnd, that is except estate agents. They take your deposite and if the builder fails to build you don't get the property. Do you get your money back from your agent? No the agent tell you it's not his resonsabilty and you must go to the developer yourself, some agent.

Fpegman

Let me illustrate. Below I have copied a post I made earlier today on another thread in this forum under 'Estate Agents'.

Hi Vee

You mention two agents below. If you check their respective websites you will see they both have the same house advertised at two different prices: Casa Andaluza 110,000, Undiscovered Spain 118,000. (There may well be others too) Undiscovered Spain state on their homepage "we bring you the best houses at the lowest prices direct from the owners" - oh really!! Who is going to pocket the extra 8 grand then - the owner, I don't think so...

It seems things are just carrying on as 'normal' in Spain. Unsuspecting buyers are STILL being ripped off by greedy agents adding large commissions on top.

Fpegman, How do you explain the 8k difference in price? In my experience, the way it generally works is the vendor sets a net price they want to receive and the agent adds their fee on top of the vendors price. Lets assume that the vendor has set a price and wants to net 105k after agents fees. If Casa Andaluza sell the property for their asking price of 110k they will receive 5,000 commission and the vendor nets their 105,000 - seems reasonable.

However, if Undiscovered Spain sell the property at their asking price of 118k, they will still only give the vendor 105,000 (why would they give them anymore?) and they take 13,000. Outrageous!!

However, what is even more likely is that the vendor has set a net price of 100k so Casa Anadaluza would get 10,000 (not quite so reasonable) and Undiscovered Spain will get 18,000!!!! (Totally outrageuos and dishonest!!!!)

I appreaciate that there are honest and hard working agents out there trying to do the best for their clients (remember estate agents usually work for the seller not the buyer). However, as long as the practice illustrated above continues, how the hell can buyers trust ANYONE?? I think it is time that this sort of practice is exposed and the agents that are guilty of doing it are named and shamed and surely the good agents (I assume you count yourself as one) should be taking the lead on this. Your job would be much easier if buyers knew that this type of corruption, as far as I am concerned that is what it is, no longer existed. Why don't you property professionals try and do something about it?

I suppose the problem is that the corruption goes so deep in Spain that even if you managed to stamp it out amongst the agents that still leaves the vendors, the lawyers, the notary's, the mayors etc etc etc. We live in hope...

 One way of helping to stop this is if you go into an estate agent to look at buying a property ask (or look around at info on the premises) check what commission rate they are advertising - if you dont like the information given then walk out.  Estate agents should act for the seller - but if they have no buyers they will not last long.

If you are looking to buy a property - or organise viewings - via the internet then when you have found the property you like you should look at several agents around to see what price they are charging and when you have found one you think is good then perhaps check with that agent to see what their commission rate is.

You are wrong to say Estate Agents in Spain act for the seller.

I know many agents who do not even list property and rely solely on the multi-listing systems to source property.

Some of these agents are quite good at finding buyers and put all their effort into finding buyers and then finding property. I guess a better title would be property finders.

Remember in less than 5 mins I could set myself up as an estate agent - subscribe to a multi listing system and claim to have 5,000+ properties on my books and being Spain I would also claim 25 years experience in real estate (I have none - but who cares).

This is also the argument for high commission because commissions are always split. I saw a deal recently which involved 4 agents!!!!

But this is not all bad and what you should be asking an agent if this is a property he/she has listed. If listed then you can dicuss price/commission. If it's not a property they have listed then it's harger depending whether there is a relationship between the 2 agents etc. But then you at least know the agent has no direct relationship with the seller and then you can really work at shafting the seller and getting the property at the very best price - sorry it's a buyers market!

Personally I would suggest ignoring asking price altogether and do you own research and make an offer and you might be pleasantly surprised at what gets accepted.

You are right, any 'Tom, Dick or Harry' can set themselves up as an agent and the problem is there is no professional body to set and monitor standards.

It is a question of transparency and who pays the agent. If agents don't act for the seller then who do they act for and who pays them? If they are acting for the buyer as a 'property finder' and the buyer is paying them then surely the buyer is entitled to know how much they are paying for this service. But this is never disclosed and because the agent (or multiple agents as you say) add their slice on top, their commission is effectively hidden within the asking price and this can mean the asking price varies considerably from agent to agent as already illustrated, leaving unwary buyers vunerable to being ripped off.

I believe many agents, particularly the British agents, prey on this vunerability and buyers will often pay a far higher price than needed because they don't understand how the system works.

Many agents, not all, seem to exist somewhere in a grey area between seller and buyer but don't act specifically for either - so they must be acting for themselves. To clarify things and to make the market place transparent, agents should state clearly who they are acting for and who is paying them. The person paying them, either buyer or seller, should then be told how much the fee is. We don't mind paying for a service as long as we know what the service is, how much it costs and what we are getting for our money.

roybud

You've hit the nail on the head there. Estate Agents act for themselves and are blinded by £$£$£$£$£.

They're carving up a high commission built into selling price depending or who listed property who introduced buyer etc. He who has the buyer is king and no major difficultly finding property for sale. 

I'll refrain from getting started on the British in business in Spain because I'm not too fond of them. About one in ten are good!

The only solution is for a buyer to do a lot of research. Sometimes you have to use agents to buy because the ex-pats selling always go with agent and it's fair to say that some agents can be very good in finding bargain properties and giving you the nod that the seller is absolutely desperate - behind on community - behind on electricity - behind on mortgage and if does not sell ASAP will lose property to bank. Again it's very much a buyer's market and sometimes I am even shocked by the price at which property gets sold in these situations!

An example for you all, as some followers may know we have searched high and low on and off for 12 years looking for that special house , on the way we have met every asshole Agent from Andulcia to Valencia , now we have found a house what we do we find , anotrher Asshole who has the property on her books!!

I found it some months ago , Agent has had it on her books for 5 years but we realised why, she does not pass on any offers to the Vendor unless it is enough for the AGENT TO CREAM OFF A LOT OF `COMMISION`!!

We have since found out she is charging the Vendor 5% , who incidentally is back in UK suffering from Alziemers so really does not what is going on, the son has power of attorney , no money to repair roof etc and the place is becoming sad and dilapidated , all because this Greedy Bitch wants as much out of it as she can!

We offered a very reasonable price but told the owners want a minimum sum of whatever , this we know is daft as its needs much work and larger house next door needs none and is asking eq of 40.000 more, work needed on house we like needs that and more spending on it , can`t be just because it has a larger garden either!!

Tried finding out the owners details via Town Hall but they can not allow us to have contact details , we have to employ a Lawyer to do this so we can be sure the Vendor knows of our offers etc, they have no money so we know they would be happy to sell now or another winter while hole in the roof is not going to make it worth much at all if its still not sold in another few years time!

Thats the kind of thing only some Greedy bloody English Ex pat would do , there is no professional attitude or ethos with these people , we just feel so frustrated and so very sad for the Owner who has no idea what is going on , or even probably that her house is becoming slowly derelict !!

This is inland North Costa Blanca !!

Vee

Vee !!!!!!!!!!

To Si's Partner

Surely you are not going to drag up that old chestnut you have already aired this rant before

 yeaaaaaaaaaah!!!!!!!!!!!!

Bloody Estate Agents!!!

if they sell your house quickly they haven't earned their money!

If they take their time to sell it they should work harder!

3 to5% of 50k!!! blimey they must be rolling in it!!!

They should have honourable professions like most of the people on here!

The English ones are the worst!! i think they should get rid of them all and let buyers and sellers deal directly with each other!!, it's not as if anyone would argue, would they?!!, in fact while we are at it lets get rid of the car dealers as well.........it's not as if anyone has to do any legal checks on anything so joe public would never rip each other off!

It's not as if they have offices to run,tax to pay,iva to pay,staff to pay advertising costs, websites to run and drag 3 in 5 carpet readers around property each day...........

I think i could do that standing on my head!

In fact i think we should remove every agents website from public domain so that everyone has to go trawling around the countryside knocking on doors,that would be so much more fun and the Spanish are so easy to deal with,especially if you shout really loudly at them in English!!

It's not as if the country needs the corperation tax and social security they pay every year is it???

Bloody estate agents,who needs em?

I think if the agent knew you were 12 years looking for property they would have some dificulty taking you serious.

I do know some agents maintain a blacklist which they share of time wasters who year in year out visit agents who drive them up and down every country lane and then never make an offer or take the plunge.

I'd like to hear an agent comment of clinets like this ....... and the diesel bills!

Being a little sensitive aren't we Georgia?? I, and I am sure most people on this forum, don't object to estate agents making a fair commission for the work they do, and most do provide a valuable service, but as I have said many, many times before on here, it is the crooked ones that spoil the market for everyone, buyers, sellers and honest agents alike.

There really is no justification for the same property being offered at substantially different prices by different agents just because the crooked agents think that some buyers won't notice and will unwittingly pay a higher price, giving the agent extra commission - often substantial amounts. This is simply crooked, deceitful and dishonest in my opinion.

Nor is there any justification for the agent Vee describes behaving in the way she does. Again, simply dishonest and crooked behaviour. This type of behaviour does more harm to the Spanish market than anything else.

You cannot deny this type of thing goes on and is more widespread than people realise. It is a shame that the system in Spain allows it to happen, unchecked. Not only do buyers suffer, but the good honest agents (like yourself) do too. Why don't you good guys get together and try to do something to stop it - lobby parliament or something. Start a campaign to drive out all the dodgy agents from Spain. That would help to boost sales!

Dear oh Dear , its simply amazing how Estate Agents get so `hot under the collar` when the so called `proffesion` is questioned .

Just needed to make aware that we have looked on and off for 12 years, simply because we have looked in various areas before we decided which one suited us best , we did find a place in Olvera a couple of years ago , sadly our offer was not accepted , then we gat an email that they would drop the price , too late , by then we had discovered inland Blanca which we found quite lovely , the previous property is still for sale and price put up again, rest my case on that one!

Before anyone rants on that we will not be taken seriously , why should that be I ask myself, we don`t need a mortgage , we found a place we really do like very much, it hasn`t sold in 5 years , its beginning to deteriate naturally  and again , ask yourselves, if it hasn`t sold in 5 years then Miss Estate Agent wake up , its over priced and if she keeps on refusing to pass on all offers to the Vendor, that she should be doing anyway, then its going to be on the market for another 5 years in which time it will no doubt become worth less and less as it falls into further disrepair .

I was trying to point out in this forum our personal experience , after all is that not what this Forum is all about, to inform others of the scams, rip offs etc , as well as informing others of all the good things that abound in Spain?

If an Estate Agent is more concerned with how much commision they will be losing on a sensible offer on a place already overpriced rather than have a sale and accept a little less after 5 years marketing than one has to question the ethics, motives and professionalism towards their clients, i e the Vendor !!

If the Vendor is overseas , is not aware of what is going on , is not informed even that the property is falling into a bad and necleted state then what is that Agents agenda , its all soley based on COMMISSION , its greed and nothing else

Does anyone wonder as you look at properties why has it not sold ? Look a little deeper and one will alwyas find some `Brit` Agent is involved somewhere along the line , then you are buggered , we agree with the general concencus, those up front, Registered and Experienced Agents should form a Proffesional Body , draw up a Register of Govt Registered Agents , all Bonded , paying into a Professional Fund and stritcly Regulated , then all those bent crooked , rip off Agents AND their under qualified so called Lawer friends / associates will be forced out of the business unless they can prove they have passed various exams, been inspected by a Professional Body appointed and all checks made on their previous experience in Real estate and Real estate Law , then and only then will Spain be rid of the `chancers` and rip off merchants who ruin the Profession for those FEW who are Professional , lets be honest , to those who have come across this `breed` of so called` Agents` over the years they are the kind who would not be sucessful in any business here in UK let alone another Country where most can`t even speak the Language , they are usually `Dell Boy` type operators who know sweet FA about property , let alone Property Laws , a lower `caste` even than the Car dealers , if people want a good second hand car , buy it in UK where one can find left hand drive , they are a hell of a lot cheaper than in Spain , madness what `Brit` car dealers are selling for !

If we do have luck and can get the house we like we will make a solemn promise , we will NEVER employ any `Brits` to do any work on the house , will never purchase anything , car , furniture , whatever , will only patronise Spanish business`s , after all , that is the reason we wish to move to Spain after all , to integrate , make friends and learn the Language  , if we needed to be ripped off , treated like mugs and cash cows we would stay her in UK , why do business with Brits in Spain who are scratching around like Vultures trying to exist by preying on fellow Brits !!

Please read this as its meant to be, its not a rant as one put it , its all fact , it can all be dealt with and put to rights but the Profession need the Political will to push it forward to safe guard those Agents who do a good job and those overseas buyers that are , after all spending a lot of money , we are not talking pennies here !!

Vee

** EDITED - Spam **

craigspain,

Blatant advertising from none other than:

An ACOUNTANCY firm????

based in Bradford, UK!

or is Companies House wrong!

This is the data held by UKData.com

Everyone,

Aren't we going off topic a bit?

We did start talking about the prices of property in Spain, before we ended up Estate Agent bashing! Again!

I'm am not, nor affiliated with in any way, an estate agent, however there are some good ones in the basket that is (was) filled by rotten ones.

They say a fool and his money is easily parted, and it is those who were (are) prayed on by unscrupulous estate agents.

That being said, many estate agents have gone out of business, and guess what type of agents they were!

Those that now remain are generally more honest and trustworthy, however when it comes to buying a property here in Spain, or indeed anywhere, never fully trust anyone when it comes to money and business!

People are in business to make money... simple!

Back on topic...

I've noticed that here in Manilva the EPM2 value is now 2,035€

So even in these trying times, the valuations are still quite high, indeed the valuations on both of my properties are higher than when we purchased either of them, and that was quite a shock, as I had expected them to be slightly less.

Technoape

Not sure where you get these valuations from:

I've noticed that here in Manilva the EPM2 value is now 2,035€

So even in these trying times, the valuations are still quite high, indeed the valuations on both of my properties are higher than when we purchased either of them, and that was quite a shock, as I had expected them to be slightly less.

They're no where near this from what I've seen.  I've started seeing 2 bed appartments in Manilva/Duquesa below the 100K figure now.  In Manilva pueblo there's new build 2 bed appartments on the market for €73K.

Just look at the bank reposessions on the market.  There's a 2 bed up for sale by La Caixa in Princess Kristina (I think that's near where you are) for €110K. 

Property in Manilva is still  way overpriced in my opinion given the oversupply.

Probably from his other planet........Bless......x

Sanchez,

I am not talking about the selling price, I am talking about the Evaluation per Metre Squared, and I live in La Vizcaronda but I do own an apartment in Princesa Krisitna, which is in a different phase to the one you are talking about, and the units in phase two are much smaller build and as they are bank repossessed they are much cheaper.

Craigspain,

I got the information from the official source at the Ministry of Housing and Tasamadrid via the newspaper El Mundo.

You can check it our here for yourself at the website in question Precio medio del m2 por provinica and if you click on this link, then click on Malaga province at the bottom, you will see a list by postal code. The fifth area on this list is Manilva, and as you can see, states the EPM2 value at 2,035€ which is what a valuation company will use in conjunction to recent selling prices in the same Urbanisation, build size and build quality, etc.

Translated text from the top of the web page in my link above:

Find your zip code. Check the average prices per square meter calculated from the latest valuation undertaken by the appraiser Tasamadrid throughout the month of August. Prices apply only to property used (more than two years old).

PS. I notice you didn't deny any information I posted below and also wonder what planet you are on? As you didn't know this information Craigspain?