Problem President :(

  3 weeks ago, we moved into an apartment.  This is the first time we have lived somewhere with an active community and community president.  I have searched far and wide for answers to my 2 problems so I'm hoping some here can help

spainjo

Unfortunately power tends to go to the head of a President and this all goes back to Franco days.

My advice is simply do what you want and as other do.

Put you satellite dish where you want (as others have done before you!) and the next time he harasses your kids have an abusive argument with him and I promise you that will be the last you will see of him.

Your kids can have anyone over they want to play with and no stupid notes required.

Don't play their games as you will only feed their craving for power and respect.

The worst case I saw before this was an ex Spanish policeman on a very small community (8 houses) where some friends lived and everyone was frightened of him and his patrols!

As for rules ......... no one obeys them!

Although i can see Faro's point, I would advise you to proceed with care.........simply because if there is any come back from your actions you will be the ones to suffer.

Are you the owners? If you are you are able to get sight of ANY documentation which belongs to your community. If the president is reluctant find out who the Administrator is and go to them and get it sorted out. The minutes of previous meetings should answer your questions.

All owners should be able to recieve at least Spanish TV. Unless there is something in the Community Rules that states you cannot have a TV aerial then you should be able to have one on the roof BUT the roof may be some other apartment owners private property ( solarium ) and then you will have to get permission from them.

I do hope you can sort it all out.

 On our community we have got around the satellite problem by someone intially buying the satellite and installation, then everyone else paying for a connection to their dish. Do you know any of the owners with a dish and are they close to you? You could ask them if it would be okay for you to supply a quad lnb which allows up to 4 connections to the one dish and get an installer to run the cabling for you?

I seem to recall Maria stating somewhere that it is a right for all residents to be able to receive television, therefore your President is in the wrong by not allowing you to connect to a means of receiving.

Mark

 Thanks for your replies.  We have looked into connecting up to someone elses dish, however the apartments are in 3 separate blocks and the only other Sky dish is at the other end. We are not owners, we are only renting (I don't know if that makes a difference). I did tell the president that I thought he was being unfair as other people have dishes up, his response was that the people that already have them were granted permission by previous presidents and that now there are too many. I personally think that he is just being awkward as he seems to have a problem with whatever we do. We are not disruptive or noisy and we get on with the other residents...who I might add also think that they should never have voted him for president in the first place ;)  

As regards the issue with the pool, I think you're right Faro, I'm just going to let the children go and play then approach him if he says anything. We pay community fees and have the right to use the pool.

Thanks again

Jo

Sorry, I thought you owned the apartment.

If I was you I would go straight to the owner and let them sort it out, especially as according to the Horizontal property Law, the OWNER is responsible for thier tenants, so the onus will be on them for whatever you do.

Unfortunately, as you do not own, you have very little redress and will not have access to Community stuff, but your owner has if they can be bothered to sort it for you.

Hi, is it not down to the owner to pay the community fees?

Problem 1:

When we came to sign the contract, the owner told us that we would be able to put our satellite dish on the roof as there are others that have them there as well as some on the side of the building.  When I asked the President for permission, I was told absolutely not as there are already too many there and if he allows one more then the community will have to pay for a communal dish and that they don't have the funds available.  When I argued that our TV aerial doesn't even receive the basic Spanish channels, never mind TDT (the building and all its wiring are very old) he basically told me that it's not his problem. So we are not only left without SKY, but also without normal TV.  I told the owner (who also lives in the complex) and she said that the presidents decision is final. Can he dictate who can watch TV and who can't?  Even if we manage to get the TV aerial sorted, we do want Sky as we have brought our own dish with us and have pre paid for a Sky package.

Regardless of who pays the community fee, you are not a member of the community (if you stop paying, the community will have to chase the owner not you for payment) so your argument is with your landlady, not the president. If she is not prepared to overrule the president's decision or tackle him on the subject, then you don't have much of a case (except with her because she told you before it would not be a problem). The president certainly doesn't have to justify himself to you. Having said that, I believe that it is now law for all communities to have a TDT aerial available for all properties to connect to (anaogoue TV is now finished), so he would be wrong to say it's not his problem if you cannot receive any TV. As for the satelite dish, I'm not sure what the law says with regards custom and practice, i.e. if other owners have dishes, can you be refused one? If the community voted for this rule at some point, then I guess it would stand. You should be aware, of course, that unless you have at least a 1.3 metre dish, you aren't going to get SKY anyway.

Problem 2:

We have 2 children aged 11 and 13 who like to use the swimming pool.  There is no lifeguard as the pool is only small and not very deep.  The rules stipulate that children may not use the pool unless accompanied by an adult and that invitations to non residents are to be made by the parent and not the child.  The president said that the children could use the pool unaccompanied if give written permission.  The other day I gave a note to my daughter (13) as requested.  She was promptly told by the president to get out of the pool and the area because she is under 14 years old and that the note was no good and that I had to get a proper letter done by our lawyer and produce a copy of my passport.  I also included in the note that I had given permission for 2 of her friends to be there with her, to which we were told that we can only invite 1 non resident at a time. Now none of these "extra" rules are written in the "normas" outside the pool and I cannot be at the pool as I work all day.  The president knows that I work from home, so I am on the premises all day, but it is impossible for me to be there to watch the children. So the children are not using the pool.  He seems to say one thing, then when we do it, change the rule to something else.  I have asked for a copy of the minutes from the meeting that states that the rules he is imposing have been voted and agreed upon, but he says that as we have only just moved in and we did not attend that we are not entitled to a copy.

Was the note written in Spanish? If not, I can fully understand the president not accepting it, as it would probably not be valid in a court of law. My only question is, who exactly is responsible for the children, and they are children in the eyes of the law, when they are at the pool? There is no lifeguard, God forbid there should be an accident, but the community does not want to find itself landed with a hefty lawsuit (it happens, believe me) so it has to make sure it's covered for such an eventuality. The rules regarding limiting non-residents are quite normal and make perfect sense to me - there's nothing more annoying for those owners who do pay the community fees than finding loads of kids who do not live there making it impossible to enjoy the facilities themselves. There's a perfectly good beach in Fuengirola that's free for everyone to use. As for copies of relevant minutes, neither the president nor the administrator is obliged to furnish you with these, you would have to ask your landlady to get them (yes, she has every right to them)

As regards the issue with the pool, I think you're right Faro, I'm just going to let the children go and play then approach him if he says anything. We pay community fees and have the right to use the pool.

Understandable, I suppose, especially if there are other unaccompanied children there, but wrong in my opinion. Yes, you have a right to use the pool, but only under the same rules as everyone else. Firstly, you should understand that the president is legally responsible for the community, and whilst yes, they can sometimes be power crazy and unreasonable, it's an unenviable position to be in. Secondly, Faro's suggestion that you should just do whatever you want since everyone else ignores the rules, whilst again is understandable to some extent, is precisely what's wrong with so many communities. Ask yourself if you want to live in a lawless community where nobody respects anybody else's rights? Do what you like, but understand that by doing so you may make yourself (and your kids) very unpopular with your immediate neighbours, and should you ever feel the need to complain about the activities or behaviour of others, expect to find yourself on your own. Finally, I will add that, if the majority of owners (not tennants) are unhappy with this president and how he's running things, they are free to vote him out anytime they want.

Just like I said Roberto !!   

You're so much better at putting it concisely! I do tend to wax lyrical

When the change over from analog to digi and having a communal ariel we had to by law do the change over, (even if only one owner demands the spanish t.v) as our community lawyer confirmed that by spanish law, in a community and with a community ariel you have to supply information and news.

With regards to sky t.v dishs etc, if permission has been granted to install one dish on a property, then permission for others must be allowed, however the community may have voted in the size and location of such dishs.

I would get your owner to sort out this with the president who sounds like another !!!!of our powers to be people a community could do with out.

With regards to community fees i would pay thr fees and deduct it from your rent, then see if owner will do anything.

Nitram  

If you are only renting then you can pretty much do as you want. Smile and simply keep saying los siento no habla espanol!

People renting are a real problem to communities and all anyone can do is keep complaining to the owner who probably doesn;t care as long as rent gets paid.

But at the end of the day you have to decide if this is somewhere you can live and be happy and if not then simply terminate your contract and find somewhere with less rules and enjoy life!

Children of 11 and 13 are fine playing by themselves and in summer children spend all day playing by the pool and you simply can't do that if you're trying to work.

I'm already rallying support for my communities AGM. In the past they tried refusing to allow English to be spoken and the excuse was cost so I said no problem and last year provided a translator for all the English who had all stopped attending!

When "El Presidente" comes to see me he always emphasises he comes in peace becuase we've had words in the past usually to do with children playing .........

 Was the note written in Spanish? If not, I can fully understand the president not accepting it, as it would probably not be valid in a court of law. My only question is, who exactly is responsible for the children, and they are children in the eyes of the law, when they are at the pool? There is no lifeguard, God forbid there should be an accident, but the community does not want to find itself landed with a hefty lawsuit (it happens, believe me) so it has to make sure it's covered for such an eventuality. The rules regarding limiting non-residents are quite normal and make perfect sense to me - there's nothing more annoying for those owners who do pay the community fees than finding loads of kids who do not live there making it impossible to enjoy the facilities themselves. There's a perfectly good beach in Fuengirola that's free for everyone to use. As for copies of relevant minutes, neither the president nor the administrator is obliged to furnish you with these, you would have to ask your landlady to get them (yes, she has every right to them)

Yes the note was written in Spanish, and it had everything in it that the president requested in the first place. I do understand that they are children, but he had said already that it would be ok as long as I accepted full responsibility, which i do. I would never expect the responsibilty to fall to any one else other than myself..even if there was a lifeguard.  I understand the reservations he might have, as you said there is no lifeguard and they do not want to be lumped with a lawsuit. In the note, I put that I accept total responsibility. for them and any friends (which is what he asked me to put). What I can't fathom is why after doing exactly what he asked, does he still have a problem? As regards non residents using the pool, I am not talking about 20 kids with their parents, I simply invited 1 friend per child (as it states in the normas) so that they had somebody to play with, as I have 2 brothers and remember that it was bad enough having to live with them, never mind only having them to play with during the summer holidays! Yes there is an excellent beach in Fuengirola, but I do not want my 13 and 11 yr olds to be there playing on their own. Here at the pool I can keep a regular eye on them and be close at hand if God forbid anything happened. The landlady ( a lovely but very old person) says to speak to the president so it looks like we're in a no win situation. But thanks for your point of view and info, as I said this is the first time since we have been here (nearly 10 years) that we have lived in an active community, so I'm not sure how it all works.

Understandable, I suppose, especially if there are other unaccompanied children there, but wrong in my opinion.

TBH I haven't seen any unaccompanied children but certainly unaccompanied under 16's. He certainly doesn't seem to stop people just walking in and using the pool at the weekends. I see them all the time strolling in with their towels over their shoulders.  The community is gated but the pedestrian gate and the main block doors don't have any locks on them. They are putting locks on the block doors but you access the pool from the garden area.

With regards to sky t.v dishs etc, if permission has been granted to install one dish on a property, then permission for others must be allowed, however the community may have voted in the size and location of such dishs.

Yes there are other dishes, both spanish and SKY. We have a 1.3m and there are at least 3 on the other blocks.

When the change over from analog to digi and having a communal ariel we had to by law do the change over, (even if only one owner demands the spanish t.v) as our community lawyer confirmed that by spanish law, in a community and with a community ariel you have to supply information and news.

The aerial has been changed over, it just doesn't work.  I have spoken to the landlady about this and she says to speak to the president as it's a community problem. There are other apartments that have erected their own TV aerials and signal boosters as apparantly it's a problem with the way it is all wired up due to the building being very old. We have been told that as we are facing the front and not the back that we cannot put up any dish or aerial as it will deface the building.

Unfortunately, as you do not own, you have very little redress and will not have access to Community stuff, but your owner has if they can be bothered to sort it for you.

I thought as much :( I don't think that the landlady can't be bothered, I think it's just that she is very old (90 I believe! although she doesn't look a day over 75!) and she doesn't want the hassle.

 children spend all day playing by the pool and you simply can't do that if you're trying to work.

Thank you Faro. It is hard when you have no other option. I am very lucky in that my boss allows me to work from home. I work for a company in Gibraltar and I used to travel between their Malaga and Gib offices every day. But even though I am at home, I AM working normally from 8.30am - at least 6pm, so it's the bulk of the day. Luckily both my children have adapted well to having me here but not having me (if that makes sense!) 

Thanks again to everyone for your replies :)

Jo

Faro.....................you must be a Presidente's nightmare with this attitude!!

'If you are only renting then you can pretty much do as you want. Smile and simply keep saying los siento no habla espanol!'

For most Presidents it is a thankless full time job/nightmare/problem!!

Community Rules have been agreed at AGM by the majority of the Community, if you don't like them, do something about them.

Also remember that your advise could have reprecussions for the tenant and the owner.

May be better for the person renting to move to a 'nicer' Community tho. it seems to be standard that kids under 12 must be supervised in the pool...............that means the surpervisory person actually at the pool not 4 floors up!!

 Why not give notice and move if it annoys you that much? I think all communities have rules about children, ages, visitors and use of the pool. In general they are for the benefit of the majority and the safety of the children. You are not comfortable about them being there without supervision otherwise you would allow them to the beach or why don't they visit a friends place. 

There is so much property around it would seem to make sense to find one that suits you. You were given misinformation by the owner and I would have thought that would allow you to break the contract and move on. Good luck.

What I can't fathom is why after doing exactly what he asked, does he still have a problem?

Me neither; you'll have to ask him! Similarly, why is nothing being done to stop non-residents just walking in? It's a common problem and not easy to deal with - but anyway, not your concern, because you are not an owner. But simply saying others ignore the rules, so will I, is an unbelievable attitude to take. There will always be rule / law breakers, but imagine the state of anarchy and chaos if everybody took that stance.

As regards non residents using the pool, I am not talking about 20 kids with their parents, I simply invited 1 friend per child (as it states in the normas)

In your original post, you said "we were told that we can only invite 1 non resident at a time", now it's one guest per resident? What happens if there's a family of seven in one home? You might not be talking about inviting 20 kids, but if the rule is in fact 1 guest per property, then it makes no difference if you only break the rule a little bit! If you bring just one more than the permitted number, others will then see nothing wrong in bringing as many as they like too. Yes, it happens.

Very wise posts by kev2006n & Karensun before this, well worth taking note of.

I think it's just one of those standard notices they put up every year and that means they have done their job. I have never seeen that rule enforced before. OK they try to enforce playing with inflatables or football etc

Also in the community gardens some children are just out there playing cards or board games and only swim when their parents come out to supervise etc becuase that's what their parents have told them etc.

My kids when they were under 12 were always in the pool by themselves - obviously not when they were toddlers etc. But it's for each parent to decide the responsibilty age for their own children ..... also my children were out playing with other children on the urbanisation of the same age so they were not unique in that regard.

I would prefer to see children playing in garden/pool than sitting inside playing PS3 or Wii all day!

I find it really funny when siesta hours are not respected or some holiday makers decide to splash around after midnight because they are on holidays - again this tends to be people who have borrowed someone's house for a week etc but it does get complaints!

But some of the rules go too far and there is no enjoyment left in life at all. The real benefit of urbanisations for children is there is always others to play with but other than that BIG PAIN!

But as for me being a nightmare I do at least attend the AGM and any other meetings they hold. I'm trying to get more English people back who had basically been told to stay away becuase English would not be spoken and they would not be allowed participate at meetings!

My biggest problem is lack of attendance even amongst the Spanish. But I have no desire to be President becuase I like being a backbencher! But each President seems to have their own little agenda - ie stop kids playing outside "my" house or whatever ...

There are extremes of behaviour on both sides - a bit of understanding is all that is required!

I think it's just one of those standard notices they put up every year and that means they have done their job. I have never seeen that rule enforced before. OK they try to enforce playing with inflatables or football etc

Also in the community gardens some children are just out there playing cards or board games and only swim when their parents come out to supervise etc becuase that's what their parents have told them etc.

My kids when they were under 12 were always in the pool by themselves - obviously not when they were toddlers etc. But it's for each parent to decide the responsibilty age for their own children ..... also my children were out playing with other children on the urbanisation of the same age so they were not unique in that regard.

I would prefer to see children playing in garden/pool than sitting inside playing PS3 or Wii all day!

I find it really funny when siesta hours are not respected or some holiday makers decide to splash around after midnight because they are on holidays - again this tends to be people who have borrowed someone's house for a week etc but it does get complaints!

But some of the rules go too far and there is no enjoyment left in life at all. The real benefit of urbanisations for children is there is always others to play with but other than that BIG PAIN!

But as for me being a nightmare I do at least attend the AGM and any other meetings they hold. I'm trying to get more English people back who had basically been told to stay away becuase English would not be spoken and they would not be allowed participate at meetings!

My biggest problem is lack of attendance even amongst the Spanish. But I have no desire to be President becuase I like being a backbencher! But each President seems to have their own little agenda - ie stop kids playing outside "my" house or whatever ...

There are extremes of behaviour on both sides - a bit of understanding is all that is required!

I think you may find that Spanish law has something to say about the age a child can be left in ( or by ) the pool on thier own.

The parents who leave thier kids unsupervised will be the 1st to shout if something happens to that child...................I bet it will be the Community's fault then!!

Common sense is all that is needed, your chid, your responsibility, be there with it.

Faro

You sound a bit like some on our complex. They leave their kids (under 12) for hours on end in the Pool .The kids are just being kids in the main but we have all sorts of problems with their selfish and unsafe behaviour. Adults just wanting a quiet swim tend to leave the Pool because kids are bombing and making a racket with no parents to take a bit of responsibility when their kids get out of hand.

Just have the temerity to suggest that parents might actually act like parents and take a passing interest in whether their offspring have drowned or not..

I have ended up watching for kids as young as 3 walking round the deep end because their parents were sat out of sight too busy getting bladdered...

Have these people never heard of Madeleine --Oh but they are on holiday and entitled to their fun are'nt  they...

I brought up 3 kids and never reneged on my parental responsibilities.