Problem President :(

Sounds like you're doing a splendid job - all credit to you.

Problem No1. When you show yourself to be competent, caring, and willing, the other owners are liable to heave a huge sigh of relief and back off into their ivory towers and nail their doors firmly shut even more than before - happy to keep voting you back into office, happy to avoid ever having to take any responsibility themselves because Hey! you're doing such a good job.

Problem No2. When minor maintenance jobs around the place a taken on by "ourselves", what we mean is "myself", or if you're lucky, a very select few who actually give a damn. Once the other owners have seen how much money this saves them, they will expect you to always be on hand to do these jobs, in your time and for no personal gain.

I've not yet found a viable solution to either of these problems. If you force other owners to take thier turn at the reins (as per the Horizontal Law), it can lead to huge problems if they do not carry out the task properly & responsibly (see my previous rant); and if you just give up and pay whatever some cowboy contractors demand to change a light bulb, ultimately it hits your pocket just the same as the slackers'.

Robert, I admire your positivity and enthusiasm and I sincerely hope you don't end up an embittered on chimp who just says "no" all the time. If only all owners were like you (and me really, still somewhere deep inside)

Hi Robert

Thanks for your input

"The President has great powers but also great responcibilities. I note that many of you have trouble getting info from your President and Administrators.

Solution? Vote him off and replace the administrators or tell them to buck their ideas up or else."

Very sound advice but that assumes there is someone like you or Roberto prepared to step in, do lots of work for nothing, accept all the flack that some owners dish out and are prepared to ensure the Administrator is kept on their toes.

All other owners love it when someone else takes the responsibility over for them but they are first to complain should you make an important decision on your own that may not be in their best interests.  Such as that taken by our President in his disagreement with the Entidad board.

I also noted your previous post re Horizontal Laws and regulations and I agree with your comments, however we too have placed many onerous restrictions on owners but it has become increasingly obvious that you can introduce as many laws as you like but actually enforcing them is a whole new ball game, a bit like chasing debtors, the legal process is generally ignored by Spanish Owners and the Brits stay dumb. 

Not sure about other communities but ours is now full of long term renters as owners cannot find enough holiday lets and long term tenants do not treat facilities in the same way as owners in fact our other VP ended up having a big row with the agent placing most of the long term rentals over small but important issues of rules.

Too right, Hugh. We have had plenty of problems with inquilinos who don't respect the rules, which are there for everybody, not just the owners. Holiday lets can be worse than long termers, because they're gone in a week or two and really don't care who says what to them and will do exactly as they please (inflatable dingies in the pool? Why not, I've paid for this holiday and I'm damned well going to do what I want on it)

The president should never have to become the community policeman; it can cause very uncomfortable relationships within the community. If anyone has to speak to owners about infractions of the rules it should be the administrator, who is essentially neutral, but of course also doesn't really give a toss if little Juanito is dive bombing in the pool all day long, upsetting the more genteel folk who just want to relax on their own property. And if anyone needs to speak to tennants who are out of line, it should very definitely be their landlords - who also don't give a rat's ar5e as long as they get the rent.

I believe everyone is entitled to let their property out to whoever they see fit, but unless they are also willing to accept that they are still 100% responsible for the behaviour of the occupants of their home (and if they live away, in practice they really can't be) then they should perhaps have to pay a fee to the community for permission to do so, in order to compensate the rest of the owners who end up suffering at the hands of these parasites who are virtually beyond the law. Why should some owners get away with making a financial gain from their property whilst accepting absolutely no responsibilty for the maintenance and day to day running of their property?

And why should the president be constantly bothered by idiot renters who have "lost their key", or can't work out how to open the garage door. He-ll-oooo! NOT MY PROBLEM!!!!!

Many community problems stem from confusion and mis-understanding on the roles of both President and Administrator.

Ignore what the law says are their respective roles and work out as a community what you want from each and for each to do etc then agree with each and communicate to all ....... it might work?

Owners also need to know lines of communication and who they should talk to etc.

Some communities have monthly committee meetings.

Others have open email discussions.

But's it's sitting down and agreeing what works best for your community and that can depend to some extent on make up of owners and if most are absentee etc

Proxy voting does not help - consider sending out detailed proposals/options with voting boxes etc - that would at least encourage participation which is the biggest problem - ie 5 attend community meeting and then the other 55 spend the year complaining about everything and anything!

Agreeing AGM dates a year in advance rather than giving 10 days notice - then of course overseas owners can't attend.

I have often thought about all this but don't really have the time to put it all down on paper.

I spent 5 hours in a committeee meeting yesterday and in true Spanish fashion no agreement reached!

Some of this is all down to differences between the UK understanding of building management and communities ....

All true. Especially the last bit about different mentalities / culture. I asked our administrator to send a short, concise to-the-point letter to the council and water/sanitation dept. re: our ongoing problem with the garage flooding when it rains. Two months ago. I even wrote the letter for him, just asked him to check my Spanish grammar and send it. I have asked him countless times since if he has delivered it. last week, when losing my rag for the umpteenth time about this seemingly simple request, he explained that he feels it would be better for him to speak directly to "someone he knows" in the council, rather than send my letter. he said "I know how these people think". Perhaps, I replied, but you don't know how I think. Why did he not tell me this two months ago? Why did he not just do it then, if he knows best? Whose side is he on? Clearly, not ours.

The old adage applies: if you want something done, do it yourself. So why do we pay this d1ckhead? Because the president & vice pres. don't get paid, and I for one am fed up with giving up my time for nothing. And if paying someone else to do things doesn't get the job done, then the job doesn't get done. End Of.

(I'm off out for a coffee and a chill pill now!)

Not surprised you lost your rag, I would have to.

Jojan

Presidential Responcibilities.

Enforcing the rules is not easy and sometimes goes against the grain but it has to be done and you have to be consistent. I am lucky because we have some very discerning owners at our cosmopolitan community who come from all across Europe and they are mostly happy that bad renters or users are read the riot act when neccesary. 

Our owners pay between €1.500.00 and €3,000.00 plus for the service charge and they demand high standards for this sort of money. Personally I don't have issues with owners renting property but we ask that they are careful about who they lend their property to.

Sometimes it's friends and family who are the worst offenders who think they own the place. Leave soiled nappies in the garden bins for the gardener to clear up for example and they think you are mad when you take them to task about it.

I have to say that of all the people who visit our development when it comes to trouble the worst offenders are the brits. So bad in fact that I now avoid renting my property to brits unless I know who they are or come recommended. Generally, the brits will trash and have the upmost disrespect for your property and it's contents and they are the most anti social when it comes to having respect for others around them.

I do get a payment of sorts with a reduction of €1,000.00 per year on my service charge but that doesn't really cover the time and effort put in to keeping everything in order, but at least I know the development is being run properly and I must say I do enjoy the role in a massochistic sort way.

I'm considering a motion at next years AGM that in future if a property is sold on our development the new owner should be vetted by the board before they can buy.

I wonder what response that would get?

R.E.

Most of our owners pay over €1,200 (I presume you are talking annually?) and ours is by no means a "luxury" complex, but this barely covers the essentials.

Babies / children: don't know how long you've been here Robert, but surely a wise man such as yourself knows that this category is untouchable? Sacred? Sh1t & pi55 included, even if it happens to be in the pool. Can you imagine Sr.Zippy proposing taking away child support for anyone lucky enough to be blessed with the miracle of conceiving? (They really do still seem to think it's a miracle!) Tarred & feathered before he can say (whatever the Spanish say at this point).

Not sure about Brits being the worst offenders - I suspect it's a relative thing. Yes, Brits have a bad reputation as holiday makers on the Costas, but give it a few years; when the Russkies outnumber the Brits, who knows? Bad behaviour doesn't generally discriminate. I've met good and bad of all flavours.

Offering the president some sort of financial compensation, perhaps by way of a reduction in fees, is an option, and may work if, like you, there is someone massochistic enough to actually want to do the job (I love that!) Of course, it's open to abuse though, as one of the scumbag lazy gits may take the role just for the €€€ and then still screw everything up; and on the other hand, if I'm doing the role and taking a payment for it, then I become even more obliged to take whatever crap the other owners decide to throw my way. No more will the "I don't get paid to do this sh1t" retort work.

The President needs to have the right skills and also want to do the job - so maybe instead of electing there should be an interview process! 

Some communities are very simple and easy to overses and others more similar to hotels and employ manageress, reception staff, security staff, restaurant staff, health centre staff, gardeners, maintenance staff, manage all manner of facilities ranging from bar, restaurants, spa, suana, gym facilities and so on......... deal with administrtaor, accounts, budgets, contracts, solicitors, bank and so on ..........

And with all this some of these vast communities have debts in excess of EUR500,000 - that's unpaid community fees!!!!

Relationship between President and Administrator is critical and good communication skills are required so that all stakeholders know what's going on ......

Otheriwse all hell breaks out .....

SpainJo

To get back to your original points - before this thread got hijacked on presidentail authority.

1. Pools - I was a life guard in the UK at my local pool during my late teens (to pay my uni fees). I was lucky enough to save one 12 year old's life who was running along the pool side to dive bomb his mates, slipped, banged his head and knocked himself out. I was also devasted when I could NOT save a 14 year old doing similar - he cracked his head and broke his neck doing exactly the same. There was nothing I could do - he was dead by the time I got to him! Not from the broken neck apparently - he drowned because I wasn't quick enough as I was watching 2 other stupid lads doing the same thing. I live with his death to this day.

That was ina pool with 3 lifeguards - so please think very carefully before allowing your children to be in the pool on their own when there is no-one watching out for them - whatever their age. Otherwise accept the consequences if they die. It doesn't need to be them mis-behaving, it might be some other unaccompanied kid who dive bombs them and pushes them to the bottom without anyone noticing.

2. Sky TV - do you know that is is actually illegal to have Sky in Spain? Yes everyone does it but your presidente can be as awkward as he likes if he wants to be.

My advice - find a villa with it's own pool to rent and avoid presidents and be able to keep an eye on them whilst you work.

SpainJo

You make a very worthy point. When I was a young lad I was larking around in our local river with a friend when we got into difficulties. I got out alive, my friend didn't, It took a minute for him to drown. Water is dangerous and that's why I enforce the pool rules.

Your point about renting a Villa is fine but there are no rules with private pools and sadly this is where most holiday drownings occur, not in community pools. Because community pools have rules!

When staying on a complex or development, I've always thought it was good to see children ( and adults for that matter ) of all nationalities getting to know each other around the communal pool. This interaction doesn't happen with Villas which are usually surrounded by high walls.

And I'm sorry if you think this thread was hijacked by moaners. Speaking for myself, It wasn't and I'm not. I only moan at those parents who haven't mastered basic social skills or think it is okay to let their equally socialy unaware children run riot around pools, restaurants etc ruining everones day.

For my part I was only trying to let those who don't know why community Presidents get so exasperated with people who break the rules, upset other people, think anyone in authority is a pratt and by the sound of it you would probably be one of them.

Avoid Presidents? What an idiotic comment to make.

R.E.,

 

This message was last edited by robert.ellis@hotmail.es on 09/10/2010.

Robert, I presume your last is addressed to fedup-with-moaners - SpainJo was the OP. Idiotic? More like moronic, as in oxymoron, which is what the handle "fed-up-with-moaners" is!

fed-up-with-moaners - the title of this thread is "Problem President" so how can it be hijacked by us having what seems to me a perfectly legitimate and interesting discussion about presidential authority? I don't see where you're coming from. As for moaning, Robert, Faro et al have been making some excellent and very valid contributions, sometimes offering differing points of view, which is always welcome of course. As for myself, I've been contributing here for long enough for regulars to recognise my sarcastic, slightly tongue in cheek style for what it is, and anyway, I'm an EOS Superstar so I'll do as I damn well please!!

That aside, welcome to the forum and thanks for your points about pools, which I'm 100% in agreement with. I disagree about SKY however. I don't believe there's any law forbidding anyone receiving any satelite transmission they like, if they have the equipment to do so.

Look forward to your forthcoming posts - although you might want to rethink that username

Well - well - well !

My username has certainly caused some fuss! This is a new one I created a while back to reply to another thread in the Roda forum where the moaning was getting out of hand and some very nasty personal attacks were being made on individuals who I know personally and did not deserve the abuse that they were getting. I have posted on EOS under my "real" name for 4 years and just didn't want to to post this comment using that name. What's in a username? .

Robert - Did I actually say that I thought this thread was hijacked by moaners? No, you inferred it from my username. What I actually said was it had been hijacked on presidential authority - just meaning that somewhere along the way SpainJo's original questions appeared to have been lost and IMHO her request for advice on how to deal with what she views as a problem president had been missed.

Re my comment "avoid presidents" - I did not intend it as an "idiotic" comment. I own a property on a large community and am FULLY in support of my President and VPs, and I help out as much as I can to back them up and enforce rules - especially when it comes to the pool and dog pooh. Perhaps it would have been better put as "if you want to avoid presidents" - I just meant that when in a villa (as there is often no community) there probably isn't a president at all. There was a drowning at our community 2 years ago - and mum was 20 yards away from her 2-year old child, but not watching out for him. That's why I am a tough on unaccompanied kids in pools to avoid another mother having to go through the same heartache. As I said, I've seen one before and it isn't very nice to witness.

I do not think anyone in authority is a pratt - As I said above, I offer my full support to all Presidents. They have a thankless task and one that I would not be willing to do. I just hope you weren't calling me a pratt by association.

Roberto - I agree with you wholeheartedly about some of the very valid comments that various contributors have made. I'll back you all to the hilt.

However, regarding Sky: As you say, there is no law forbidding anyone receiving any satelite transmission, if they have the equipment to do so. However, to watch any Sky transmissions you are required to buy the equipment from Sky and pay them a subscription. Any Sky channels that we watch here in Spain where the equipment has not been purchased from them (and it usually hasn't), and we aren't paying our monthly subscription, means that technically we are watching them illegally. Why do you think there was all that fuss 12-18 months ago - especially regarding re-broadcasters - when people like Torresat etc dropped their Sky channels? Did you also know that not only can Sky prosecute the person watching it without having a paid up subscription, a President can be deemed to have given them permission to do so and also be prosecuted? Worthy of some though eh!

I'll stick with my username thanks for some fun and see how many more people can so wrongly interpret my actual comments just becaus of it.

"I have posted on EOS under my "real" name for 4 years and just didn't want to to post this comment using that name".

Any particular reason why?

I don't think the OP's request for advice with her "problem" was missed, rather it seems the general consesus of opinion was that perhaps she was part of the problem. Maybe not the response she had hoped for, but a valid one nevertheless. If the thread seems to have drifted a little (only a little) since then, well, that's the evolving nature of most conversations, whether in the real world or the virtual.

As for SKY, perhaps I was wrong not to interpret the use of the name SKY to mean specifically & only subscription channels broadcast by SKY themselves (SKY1, SKY2 etc). I was thinking more generally. If you had a SKY box, purchased legitimately from SKY in the UK for example, brough it to Spain with you & rigged it up to a big dish, you'd get plenty of free-to-air channels without any subscription. And in fact, if you have a valid subscription through a UK address, satisfying SKY, I still don't believe there is any Spanish law that actually prohibits the use of the equipment. I could be wrong.