Reform of the Spanish legal system

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so apart from any welcome advice, I take it no lawyers are going to do anything themselves to further our cause as a group action of legal experts, despite the huge amount of evidence they hold and the respect they would gain for their profession and Spain in general?

So off we go again, petitions in hand, round and round in a circle of lies and deception from the law makers and so called justice system, and a sort acceptance that the system is flawed from those paid to represent those wronged, but apart from well meant advice, no more.

It's not really working yet is it?, despite all the good work and evidence it seems we are still pi**ing in the wind. That's all we can do though I guess and hope sooner or later the wind will change direction in our favour?

 well goodstich... what do you want us to do? PLease suggest and I will certainly try

Well Goodstich 44, looks to me as though you have confirmed my premise that expecting the Spanish legal system to change is expecting "turkeys to vote for Christmas".  It's not just the Spanish system though, look at any legal or political system and each is controlled by those who are going to be the least interested in it's reform.  On top of this, Spain, along with many other nations, is at present fighting off bankruptcy and hardly likely to be sympathetic to a bunch of foreigners demanding their money back whether they hold the moral high ground or not.  The only real avenue for change is the EU and they are even more corrupt than any of the nations which make up the EU whole, so don't expect anything to be done there.  The most powerful Eurocrats don't even have to put themselves up to the public for re-election and their only interest in more power and more of our money to spend.  As an individual, or a bunch of individuals, we just aren't worth a bean.  Maria cites the law very eloquently and is undoubtedly a very committed and able advocate, but virtually a lone voice.  She can quote the law, but we know from your own testament that winning the legal argument and getting a just settlement are two entirely different things and winning one bears no relationship to acheiving the other.  I hate to be defeatest and would rather perhaps to call it realist.  Of course we must continue the fight or things will never change, but we must not loose sight of the fact that we are up against a system that has taken centuries, if not millenia to evolve and we will not change it overnight.  There will be individual triumphs on the way, but unless we can convert the Spanish population at large we will not see change in my lifetime. At least the sun shines most of the time :-).

Xetog I can relate to much of what you describe but I wish to move on to some practical suggestions (well it’s a start I suppose!)

 If we take a look at the aims of Keith’s petition we can hopefully identify how legal professionals can add to the evidence required to improve the application of justice.

 1)      To expose the negligent actions of those involved, especially the Banks and Savings Banks.

2)      To highlight the unacceptable delays innocent purchasers are unnecessarily being subjected to in the courts

3)      To enforce accountability

4)      To demand justice and ensure change for the future.

Good legal professionals could add credibility to the evidence by providing their own statistical evidence to identify for instance the number of clients stuck within the legal system awaiting return of monies, awaiting preliminary enforcements, awaiting appeal resolutions etc. Also they could identify the number of clients not provided with BG’s and the numbers affected by Banks who are refusing to honour their guarantees. They could also identify (and confirm) abusive practices that are significantly compromising the application of justice and feed this back to the powers that be. In other words as a professional body they need to be more transparent and proactive at identifying problem areas and working towards establishing realistic solutions from within.

As professionals they do not appear to be striving to resolve these problem areas but are merely “reacting” to the problems as they occur. I have heard a lawyer complain that these are the conditions that they have to work within, as though they had no influence in the process of change to improve the justice system. So perhaps they need to be more organised and demonstrate their desire to take initiatives and identify, from first hand experience, cost effective measures that would eliminate inefficiencies whilst at the same time striving for resources and essential time constraints to eradicate the delays that are now crippling the justice system. Who knows maybe one would compensate for the other! But most importantly lawyers need to stand strong and make accountable those who continue to abuse the system and their profession.

 It’s a tall order but so long as we have the Maria’s (and Keith’s and Suzanne’s and Ruth’s) of this world to listen, influence and hopefully prove by example that their proactive efforts can identify solutions and influence change in pursuit of justice (not just rhetoric!), then hopefully many other legal professionals will rally to Maria’s cause and she will no longer be the lone voice.

xertog

but the difference is that these turkeys would be voting to improve their lot in the long term, not for the chop!!

Your post is smack on though sadly, and I'm well aware of the reality of it.  It's just every now and then I get an increasing sense of how obscene the situation really is. Everyone knows who the crooks are and who the decent people are, and what needs changing fast, yet still after all this time and evidence, those with the power to do the right thing continue to ignore the plea's for justice or any real moves in the right direction, which is not only damaging individuals and the property industry, but Spains's whole economy. Utter madness!

maria

I feel It's very clear that the chance of getting real justice, as in money returned in a reasonable time frame is very poor, not because some lawyers are not winning cases but because the whole system you work within is so badly flawed that winning a case is often little more than a waste of time and money for the client (if not the lawyer).  With that in mind and the fact that the whole justice system relies on integrity and truth which clearly isn't the reality, I'm suprised that good lawyers continue to want to work in a system of so much lies, deception and incompetence from the very people they and their clients have to trust to do the right thing.  Would it not be possible for the body that represents decent lawyers to get together in protest of the system that's making your proffession look untrustworthy and even corrupt, because however well you might do, the end result is often a useless waste of time and money. How many lawyers with a conciance can advise clients to take action under the current system?, and if they don't take action then the crooks win again. I'm not saying that lawyers can change the system, but if they join all of those signing the petitions as a combined group and submit the massive amount of evidence they hold, then perhaps those in the positions to make changes would be forced to listen?, and you would gain huge respect from all those in the right by showing a united front against all that you know very clearly is wrong!!

Please don't take this as a personal attack, those of us wronged continue to be very grateful to those giving free advice and trying  to work towards a better justice system, but we need far more unity on this.

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As said, by now, we send our claims on a permanent basis to the General Council of Judicial Power and are supporting any initiative which can makes an influence on this, like Keith´s petition.

maria

that's great, but instead of just supporting an initiative, what's stopping YOU, or better still a united group of your fellow lawyers taking the initiative as experts on the law and the failure of it to provide real justice for those wronged?  We need not only the cheated public to be heard, but the legal experts also backing the truths.

You asked me what I thought you could do?, could you do that?

Yes, we can certainly start/add ourselves as lawyers to any petition in that sense.

So far, I think that Keith´s one is the most comprehensive and full one. I do not think that unfolding more forces is wise at this moment and am more inclined to support initiatives as Keith´s one, where the real victims are showing their stories with full accuracy.

As lawyers we have no extraordinary procedure available to influence law changes.

We still do not have either in Spain the lobbying or think tank tradition that you have but supporting and encouraging these initiatives of ordinary people seem to the rightest thing to do at this moment.

Anyhow, I will take note and will pass your suggestion to some colleagues to see what they think.

Thanks for the suggestion,

Maria

maria

Thankyou,and yes, I realise you have no extraordinary powers available to influence law, but I feel a voice coming from a substantial group of Spanish lawyers in Spain would be very hard to ignore, and could  also cause quite a media stir that could well gain momentum, as it would be a concern for Spanish and other nations people alike.  It would be great if you could start an action on behalf of lawyers, perhaps  by way of petition, and some sort of covering letter of an experts view of why the law has let down so many people and continues to do so. I feel this could really compliment all the fantastic and hard work done by Keith, Suzanne, Ruth, Ads and a few others, and add real weight to the cause.

goodstich44 - that's an excellent idea and particularly those lawyers working on conveyancing/litigation for UK clients.

I wonder would they all agree to sign a petition calling for reform?

Ok. Let´s go.

Who volunteers for a small website I can link  to facebook?

Right now, I am aware of around 7 or 8 lawyers who will be up for this. I committ myself to launch this and try to have more colleagues added to this.

But I would need some of your help as I honestly do not have much time available.

Maria

well done, just need someone who knows how to create a web site now then?

Thank you Maria, Keith, Goodstich, Faro and all........

Yes, please. A website where we can hang information both in Spanish and English will suffice

maria

just a thought.  I wonder if rather than creating yet another site, the petition from lawyers could be a part of Keiths web site?.  When people find the site, the details and evidence would all be in one place and would hopefully add to the rankings positions, making the site more visable for all?  We would of course need permission from Keith and who ever else we need to, who is involved with the site.

Keith/ads

what do you think, is this a viable idea?

That is perfect to me

Hi Goodstitch

Yes, it is a viable idea and I am 100% behind any group of Lawyers who wish to assist in the reforming or speeding up of the Spanish legal system, especially with regards to LEY 57/68, Bank Guarantees & Off-Plan deposits.

But.....the Bank Guarantees in Spain website & petition - www.bankguaranteesinspain.com - does not recommend the services of any particular Lawyer.  I am a victim of Bank Guarantee abuse and made the website and started the petition following my research into the Bank Guarantees issue in an effort to highlight this very serious matter and to bring it to the attention of the relevant authorities.  The website is totally non-profit making and in fact it has cost me money and a great deal of time and effort.

I have received a tremendous amount of support and words of encouragement.  However, in certain quarters I have been accused of all sorts of things.

A Lawyer called Antonio Flores on his own Belegal website has, since I launched the Bank Guarantees website and Petition gone out of his way to discredit me and the petition with several totally unfounded allegations.

His latest blog posting which you can read here:

http://belegal.com/blog-by-antonio-flores/how-to-prey-on-despair/

is also now attacking my Finca Parcs Action Group website.  He does not know me - he has never met me - why he is so much against me I do not know.  His allegations shock me.  All my work on the Finca Parcs Action Group and Bank Guarantees website has been on a voluntary basis and has not only cost me money but also endless amounts of time over the past 4 years.  I have never forced any purchaser to join the Finca Parcs Action Group - it is purely for Finca Parcs purchasers and all of them have contacted me of their own free will.  I am sure all 63 members of the group will back me up on that.  

So for this reason, I would be cautious about including information from various Lawyers on the Bank Guarantees website, even if I know and believe that their involvement would be entirely honourable.

It is a difficult situation but for some reason Antonio Flores seems determined to undermine my efforts.

Kind regards

Keith

Hi Keith,

If the sole purpose to your petition be to gain evidence from all those who have been affected by the Bank Guarantee abuse in order to make those responsible, accountable, then I fail to see why Mr Flores should be so defensive.

Surely it makes sense to gather evidence, to demonstrate the failings of the system (which is undeniable), and to call for reform of a system that fails to protect consumers from achieiving rightful return of their monies as per successful judgements. The system is failing consumers (whether they be nationals or foreign nationals).

Laws that were set in place to protect offplan purchasers from developer's breach of contract,  by placing deposits in special accounts and issuing Bank Guarantees which can be evoked when PROVABLE breach of contract has occured, need to be followed, and Banks have failed in their duty to adhere to those laws. So it is inevitable that we should fight for our rights, to highlight factors that have and still are contributing to the failure of justice, but more importantly to identify realistic solutions whether this be from within Spain or, as a last resort from the EU.

If the perception is that there is some hidden agenda to this petition, that there are under hand motives at play, then I for one can guarantee this is not the case with Keith. He has been remarkably open, he has never advocated that petitioners should do anything other than seek independent legal advice (which in hindsight many wish they done from the outset). He has been inclusive in the process of establishing a comprehensive and detailed questionnaire, taken on board the factors that have impeded the application of justice, and researched at length the laws relating to Bank Guarantees. In that process it was inevitable that he would look to those who were well prepared in their legal arguments, who were equally concerned by a whole host of factors that were impacting and inhibiting justice, and were prepared to demonstrate , by example, their desire to improve the Spanish legal system from within.

It takes courage, considerable intellect and a strong determination to break away from the old school, and it is inevitable I suppose that there will be those who will resist change, who will misintepret honourable intentions, or those who will try and manipulate by attempts to discredit.

We all have to stand strong however, to come together united as a group, and continue to fight for our rights.

Thank you Keith for all your honourable efforts. It is appreciated.

And thanks also (in anticipation) to those legal professionals who are willing to come forward and support the requirement for swift reform, to work towards fair and workable solutions, and to provide evidence to substantiate their case, in whatever form that takes.

This message was last edited by ads on 01/12/2010.

Keith

well I don't know if it's me being naive?, but I have to say I'm really shocked by this. I thought the Belegal website was connected with Lawbird, and as such was a site that I could trust was not only on the side of the victims of the failure of law 57/58?, but anyone caught up other areas of the injustice of the legal/justice system?.  

What on earth is going on?.  Mr Flores seems to think you have another motive for trying to help the many people cheated, and that the motive is very much financially driven? 

I'm so sorry to read this and if not a complete misunderstanding by Mr Flores, then I can't help wondering if he has a conflict of interests with a person or body of people we are trying to bring to book for wrong doings?

I don't want to accuse anyone of anything without knowing all the facts, but I completely understand your reservations about lawyers support on your site. I had really hoped Lawbird would come on board, as a company who have won cases for me and others against the worst of the crooks.  I just don't understand why they would not back you wholeheartedly on this?, or anyone for that matter who is on the side of those so clearly wronged.  It would do nothing but improve their reputation as a company standing up for justice if they were to support all those clearly fighting for justice.

I'm truly dissapointed by this, and so sorry that on top of everything else you are trying to do for those wronged, you have been subjected to these attacks. I just don't get it?

Me neither Good stich.

We have to remain aware however that to be divisive amongst ourselves (purchasers) will only add to the problems, so I would request that please can legal professional disagreements (whatever they may be) be resolved within sensible debate and not become a divisive force that inhibits our ability to come together as purchasers in our quest for fair  justice.