Washing Machines, Inverters and generators

Hi I'm a newby to 'eye on Spain'  I live in the campo in Catalunya, I generate our own electricity using Solar, Wind generator and a BIG diesel generator, plus inverter.  I used to have an old Indeset washing machine (mechanical I think) which gave no problems,but have a Candy now, just 11 months old that has started playing up.  I'm wondering if it doesn't like being powered by a genny/inverter. Possibly it has too many electronics to cope.

Anyone out there had washing machine powering problems from using a generator.

Poligon,

I do not have a genny/inverter and my only problem with the washing machine is how to turn it on. Thankfully my wife as the skill set in that department. However I am an electrical engineer and as long as your inverter is operating ok, I don't think it is the problem. Do you have a satelite box, TV, stereo, DVD player? These have far more electronics than a washing machine. New washing machines are far less reliable than they were years ago.

Bernard

If the washing machine is only 11 months old your guarantee should still be valid.

Joan

What is the power rating of the genny?

What is the power rating of the inverter?

What do you use the inverter for; does the genny not provide AC at 220 / 240V 50Hz?

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Hi Poligon,

Yes, there can be issues with washing machines and solar. You'd need my husband to explain the tecnical stuff!

From time to time, if there is not enough power being used in our house, my washing machine won't turn on. I have to turn the tap on, making the water pump come on, so the washing machine will start!  No idea why.

You need the most basic, no frills machine you can find. Some of the new ones are stuffed full of electronics and they don't like solar. I know a few people how have had problems.

Foxbat,  you need an inverter to manage the power to and from the batteries.

febe / poligon...

I fully understand the requirement for the inverter, what I cannot understand is what it has to do with the washing machine!

It will have to be an extremely large inverter (at least 4KVA)  to cope with the demands of a washing machine that can draw up to 3kw when it's in use.

High current devices such as washing machines will very quickly drain the batteries driving the inverter supplying this second source of AC power.

If it was me, I'd be running the washing machine directly off the genny along with any other high consumption devices and using  the Solar >Battery> Inverter set up for less demanding devices.

About inverters...

Febe...The reason that your washing machine won't work sometimes is that initially there is not enough current being drawn by the machine to switch the inverter on (it relies on a minimum switch on current demand). Running the water pump places enough demand on the inverter to switch it on after which the washing machine works properly...or should!

As the current is drawn from the inverter so it heats up, this lowers the efficiency of the inverter and more current is drawn from the batteries to compensate for the reducing AC power from the inverter. This leads to even more heat being produced leading to more inefficiency until eventually a thermal trip operates in the inverter and cuts off the output. That is the reason that inverters have such big cooling fins on the frame and fans inside. Inverters have a finite lifespan, constant high current demands on them will kill them a lot quicker than intermittent low to medium current demands.

(Tell hubby that in my previous occupation as an avionics engineer on biz jets we used the  2 engine driven 28vdc generators as the primary power source on the aircraft,  Systems requiring AC power took a feed from the gennys, fed them through 2 x PC-17A 750VA inverters to produce 115vac at 400Hz'.  You don't need to be a whizz at maths to work out that the absolute max current you can drag off one of these inverters is just a little over 6A at 115V or 3A for the 240V version). Clearly you couldn't use one of these inverters to drive a washing machine since the demand is up to 12A at 240V.

Again the performance of the inverter is affected by the type of load being used. Washing machines, Dishwashers, etc.,  are essentially inductive loads comprising motors and heater elements. Inductive loads place higher demands on the performance of the inverter than purely resistive loads.

All of this was the reason I asked the question in the first place, so again...

What is the power rating of the genny?

What is the power rating of the inverter?

Does the genny not provide AC at 220 / 240V 50Hz?

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Hi Febe / Foxbat and all you other kind folks coming up with ideas.

I obviously cannot run the washing machine without the genny being on otherwise it would just drain the power from the batteries at first press of the button. I have a 10K genny (more than enough power to run the household stuff) Can run the TV, lights , 'fridge etc from the batteries, through the inverter, which I think is 1800 watt?  Sorry, I'm a bit like you Febe, not too well up on the electrical technicalities of it all! However, I think possibly the washing machine has far too many  'bells and whistles'  and the electronics are not coping too well. I think as Febe says I will have to get a more basic machine with mechanical controls. Someone once said to me that it was all to do with 'dirty' electricity and 'sine waves'?  Its just all too much for me

FB,

Thanks for that.

As there is always some thing on in this house the inverter never turns off. It's only small amps (might be as low as 0.5) but it's still on. So thats not what causes the problem. It may be  a fault with the washing machine its self, having turned the tap on could just be a coincidence.  It hasn't happened for ages, so not too worried about it.

Our inverter will run the washing machine but we have it set to turn the generator on if the load goes above 10 amps (I think?) for more than a few seconds.

Do you think that Poligon probably needs to check that his generator is not putting out fluctuating volts or Hz? That was the problem a friend had.

Hi;

First suggestion would be have a look at the genny and see if there is a spare 220 v output. Assuming the genny is outside, run an extention cable from the spare output to a point close to the washing machine and plug the washing machine into it. See if the machine will work in this configuration. If so problem solved. The motor and the heater element in the machine shouldn't have a problem with dirty electrics; the electronics might have a problem but the w/m has an internal power supply unit built in which should clean up the supplies and step down the incoming 220v to the 12v required to run the electronics.

If the inverter is in circuit at any point when the machine is in use it will be put under tremendous strain by the demand of the washing machine and the output voltage of the inverter will be dragged down to a point where the machine just will not work.

quote; Do you think that Poligon probably needs to check that his generator is not putting out fluctuating volts or Hz? That was the problem a friend had...quote

This is a distinct possibility, maybe needs new brushes or  diodes in the commutator but this is a job for a specialist. I dont know if you are in his catchment area but Mike at SolarSky might be able to help.

This isn't a personal recommdation because I haven't had any dealings with him but whenever I have thrown questions at him via another forum he has always been very helpful plus he's been around for quite a while...at least five years so he must have something going for him!

All of the above are just a string of  thoughts, because whilst I could go on all day about the Dassault Falcon 20 / 50 / 90 Business Jet DC / AC generation systems and be 100% correct in my fault diagnosis, I have no practical experience of domestic generation systems; although the basic principles are the same.

quote...Our inverter will run the washing machine but we have it set to turn the generator on if the load goes above 10 amps (I think?) for more than a few seconds...quote

Pretty well sums up what I was saying I think!

Good luck with it anyway.

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Hi Poligon,

You're not very far away from us. I'll PM you with our contact numbers. If you want them.

I know my husband can help you.

Dear All,

I`ve been suffering badly with electrosensitivty for years as a member of Electrosenstivity UK: I`ve been trying to get the message out and even there it has not sunk in yet. The aircraft industry, wind turbine and aircon industry know there is a problem with inverter drive systems. With stars in their eyes civilian engineers think they have discovered Green technology. Let me tell you they have not:

Even the military have double blinded themselves:

With RADAR being interfered with and power surges in the mains supply no one wants to hear this stuff is dangious:

The MoD in the UK complained about wind turbines interfering with their RADAR and nuclear detections systems. Its not only the rigg/blade that creates a interferance patten on the RADAR the inverter/inverter drive changes the phasing or polarity on the power produced. Even military engineers I fear have not a clue. Most know no better than being able to wire a plug I am sorry to say.

So its left us all being irradiated with this stuff.

Several things have happened the military covered what`s become the basis of computer technology. Most have not a clue that the phasing/polarity has been reversed or as they say inverted. Maximum power is in the South polarity though in muli-phasing it can be generated in any posision over a 360 deg sphere..

I`ve no idea how aspects of the military measure this so called muli-phasing. Civilan science has been told to measure energy in the north phase or polarity. Whereas modern technology including inverter drives as part of that work in the South polarity. Max power is in the South polarity. The mistake occured because someone missread an oscillerscope while a motor or engine was running backwards. At school some 40 yrs ago I was taught that running a motor backwards which is what an inverter is doing is less power efficent it also runs dirity.. THE LOWER EFFICENTCY OCCURED BECAUSE THE SINE WAVE IS SET LOWER ON THE OSCILLERSCOPE WHEN READ FROM THE TOP. THAN RUNNING A MOTOR FORWARD. HOWEVER WHEN ONE IS TALKING ABOUT TAULK THE POWER OUTPUT IS INCREASED. WE HAVE SOME SERIOUS GAPES GAPING HOLES IN THE SCIENCE.

How can something not be power efficent yet its used to generate more power than when a motor runs forward?

Double blinding begins here why?

The other day I was watching tv and a programe about AIR pollution: It was talking about the pollution wave being INVERTED;

WHICH MEANS WHAT ACCORDING TO THE PROGRAME AND ALSO WIKEPEDIA IT MEANS THE POLLUTION OR ENERGY IS TRAPPED NEAR THE GROUND. WIKEPEDIA LIKEWISE SAID RF NOISE IS ALSO AMPLIED AN BECOMES AURBALE.WITH AN INVERTED SINE WAVE...

I was told over 10 years ago by someone in the air con industry inverter drive aircon systems had serious problems in that they are known for power surges in the mains supply: Too powerful to earth filter or shield.. They don`t comply to Eu Regs BSI Regs or EMC law (electromagnetic compatibility law) just like most of modern technology. Governments and industry are playing us all for a fool.. Spendng money on Green technology forcing it through. Selling it as low powered power effcient.

I can only say what`s happend in the UK:

I spoke to a lines man working for the national grid about 17 years ago now because I had problems with a factroy using an inverter drive aircon system. It gave off a 1Kh whine 24/7.

He told me that the electricity company`s don`t measure interferance below 20HZ coming on to the mains supply. Hence from a conventional metering system the power surges from these inverters don`t show up: They would appear right down low around 1 or 2 Hz. Its hard to measure the energy at this point. However the energy is given names like Zero-point energy, non-hertizian energy, anti-gravity communications and wait for it stealth technology. Yes your mobile phone works the same.. Its only if you know the code in effect can you read the output.

Anyway in the UK we had a department called Radiocommunications Agency I spoke to two of their scientists who said the factroy should be closed. One told me that inverter drives were known for SICK BUILDING SYNDROME.

Radiocommunications told me that Local Trading Standards which are part of the local council were now responsible for the inforcement of the law regarding EMC law. The UK Government closed the RA in 2002 or so:

As they used to measure electrical interferance on both military and civilan equipment. However there are infact 2 EMC laws  one partanting to so called civilan law and the other to MoD equipment. Trading Standards were only past the civilan version of EMC law. The military version was past to the DTI (department of trade and industry) where there is no one to administer it anymore.

Trading Standards are supposed to buy in civilan experts. However as I said civilan technololgy uses one scale and Mod uses another scale best known to itself? Which is what wi-fi RADAR computers really work on. and dare I say it nuclear energy. THE LEFT HAND AND RIGHT DOES NOT KNOW IN SCIENCE AND GOVERNMENT DOES NOT KNOW WHAT EACH IS UP TO.

Confused that`s the way they like it..