What can we do for this to change? Most Brits in Spain say no gracias to integration

Most Brits in Spain say no gracias to integration

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/mar/29/europe-news

** EDITED - Text replaced by direct link to article **

I think this is another very "fluffy" article from the Guardian.

Integration is a two-way thing and this is not unique to Brits and Spain.

When I was studying in the UK, the Greeks always hung around with fellow Greeks, the same with the Spanish students, the same with the Chinese students, etc.  People will always be more inclined to hang around those with whom they have most in common with.  And language is a huge barrier.

Even watching "Españoles por el Mundo" on TV, the Spanish abroad mainly hang around with other Spaniards.

It's just the way it is.

Here where we are, the only Spaniards we are close to are those that aren't actually from this area.  The true locals have huge families and so becoming meaningful friends with them is impossible.  The "outsider" Spaniards in the area have no immediate family here and are much easier to form friendships with.

I just don't think it's a Brits and Spain thing.

Justin

Totally agree with Justin.  Where do we get this culture of integration is good; isolation is bad?  Chacun a son gusto!  If you want to integrate then good luck to you and be happy. And if you want to become fluent in Spanish then nobody's stopping you or saying you are wrong to do so.  But if you don't need to learn Spanish in order to have a lifestyle that you enjoy then don't.  

We are all Europeans or members of the EU with the same rights to live in any EU country as nationals of that country.  Britain has been a multicultural country for a very long time.  The West Indians of the 1950's and the African Asians of the 1960s and 1970s kept to their own culture.  They didn't stop eating curry and live on fish and chips and roast beef.  It is normal.  So the prior question Maria, is why should it change?

I guess it depends on where you live.  We moved to Jumilla over 2 and a half years ago, and for the first year here we hadn't met many other expats so we were very grateful for our Spanish friend Juana María, who luckily speaks a fair bit of English and who introduced us to her family.  She invited us out for tapas with her husband and family and also invited us to have lunch with them in the campo.  When we moved into our new apartment we became friendly with our new neighbours, most of whom are a lot younger than us and all of whom are Spanish, and we have invited them to our home on various occasions, plus we have been round to their flats too.  Our Spanish still isn't very good, but we are gradually understanding more of what people say and everybody is very patient with us.

Since starting a monthly English book exchange we have met a lot of other expats, who have also become friends.  We decided to have a cava and chocolate party just after Christmas and the mixture of guests was about 50% Spanish and 50% British.  More recently, we have started a Spanish-English intercambio, and have met more people through that.

We don't watch Eastenders as we mainly watch Spanish TV, though with TDT we can now see some programmes in English.  I have to say that the local people are very warm and friendly and other expats who live near here say the same.  We all enjoy our new lives and the challenge of learning another language when you are in your 50s or 60s!

Sue

 My experience here is very similar to yours, Sue.    We've lived in a small country town for three years, and have a mixture of acquaintances of all nationalities.  We are interested in local politics and customs, use local shops and tradesmen, and have translated articles about local history for the town blog; everyone knows us and we are treated warmly.

But I would never say we were integrated.   We are still guiris, we don't try and behave like Spaniards, we still eat dinner at 7 and we don't kiss everbody we meet on both cheeks.  

I don't see anything wrong with keeping one's own cultural identity as long as one doesn't go round rubbishing other people's.  Spain is a foreign country, with foreign people and foreign food.  That's why we love it!  

 I think you reap what you sow in these cases...............

My Family have just been invited to our Spanish friends Daughters Communion.

I know we will be the only English family there and although they have a huge family in the village i do feel a little honoured that we are accepted.

I think too much is read into nationality....once you get over the language barrier we are all very similar.

No, why should you integrate - if you're happy in your bubble then there's no need. Each to their own. As long as people don't complain about the doctor not speaking English or lack of availability for fish and chips then I really don't care.

However, for me personally embrasing the lifestyle and culture of the country where you live makes life richer. We're a pretty international family. I'm Danish, my husband Morrocan, we lived in Canada, my daughter was born in the UK and now we're here. We speak Spanish, kiss on both cheeks when meeting people and most people we know here are Spanish. BUT, I speak Danish with my daughter, we celebrate Christmas the Danish way, I like socialising with other expats and in general I'm definately more Danish than Spanish. I believe you can integrate to a great extend without loosing your own cultural indentity.

I do think it is harder to integrate in areas where there are large numbers of expats.  I try very hard to speak Spanish and generally get a good response, although some do reply in English. 

Yesterday I had to get papers together for a house sale and the Suma office was wonderful, happy to explain things in both Spanish or English, whereas the Aquagest office were downright rude and totally unhelpful.  I suppose though it would be the same in any country - helpful staff and unhelpful staff - we just have the added problems of understanding the language and then understanding the system! 

I am also one of those mentioned in the article, who are standing for the local elections in May and my colleagues in the Green Party are mainly Spanish, plus a few Germans.  We are hoping to have the first ever non-Spanish councillor for Orihuela in May!   I feel that when we have diversity within the councils we will then be able to say we have a truly integrated society.

I firmly believe you should integrate and speak the language of the country where you live.  Nothing annoys me more that hearing some Brit winging about a Doctor or Guardia not speaking English........why should they, you're in Spain.

Ok rant over.........on a lighter note, you miss out on so much if you don't integrate and embrase the culture.  Many things are only advertised in Spanish..

Reminds me of an article I read a few years ago where the journalist went to see how well Brits were intergrating in Spain, and only bothered to check out the obvious Brit enclaves on the Costa del Sol. So she consequently drew the conclusion that they weren't very integrated. But that's the problem - the integrated Brits are hard to find precisely because they are integrated.

I consider myself fairly well integrated, I speak Spanish 90% of the time and may only come into contact with non-Spaniards once or twice a week. But I don't consider myself to be Spanish in any way - I'm English - my work and family life just happen to be full of Spanish people! There are still plenty of cultural aspects to the Spanish that I don't grasp and I still struggle with certain accents (although I have that problem in the UK as well). Surely it's these differences that make life so interesting.

"Surely it's these differences that make life so interesting."  Obviously they do to you chopera and good luck to you.  No-one who chooses not to integrate is criticising you or Jazll for choosing to integrate.  So why criticise them?  Integrating doesn't make you superior or give you the moral high ground.  If folk choose not to integrate and accept that there are times when they are going to need an interpreter that's fine by me.  Live and let live.  Chacun a son gusto.

I'm one of those strange foreigners who didn't move to the coast (mostly because I need to work and also I hate the beach) but even up here in Madrid integrated as much as possible I struggle to fit in for the simple reason I don't speak the language very well. This is my second time at learning a language (first time German and I did reasonable well) and I just don't have the motivation to learn. Generally speaking I manage by having a huge circle of people to help me with translation. But even then you have problems. For example I put off getting treatment for my knee because of the hassle of trying to understand everything. Yes my doctor speaks beautiful English (studied there) but none of the support staff do and it's very stressful trying to deal in a language you don't speak.

While I may complain about British attitudes in Spain I can totally understand why some people don't integrate, it is really tough learning a language when you work full time and are very busy.

BTW the other thing which makes it even harder to learn Spanish is that I teach English all day and am only around people for a short time. When you have Spanish co-workers even if you work in English you hear Spanish all day and have plenty of opportunity to practice at lunch coffee etc. That I don't have and has made learning the language all that much more diffiucult.

Jek my point is more along the lines of  folks shouldn't complain about x or y being in Spanish or throwing insults because the're not understood....they're in Spain and at times have to accept this if they choose to only speak English.  

If you went to Sainsbury would you expect a Shopkeeper to respond to you in Spanish (assuming you're Spanish.........no so why expect them to respond to you in English when in Spain).  LIkewise if you visit your GP in the UK you certainly wouldn't expect them to understand you if you only spoke Spanish......folks that complain about this have in my view no right to.  I am certainly not saying it's wrong if instead you use a translator to mitigate this.

I'm not a natural linguist but can converse in and read Spanish reasonably well.  Unfortunately in recent times due to a huge investment loss (long story) we spend far less time in Spain.  That said I still try to always speak in Spanish to our Spanish friends and locals and wouldn't dream of complaining if somebody couldn't understand me.

One of the most irritating things I heard recently was an English community in Spain had asked for it to be written into their community rules that any properties sold could only be sold to English.  Their Admistrator had to explain to them in no uncertain terms this was impossible and illegal.  It made me question why they'd even bothered moving out to Spain.  Evening more strange was that said community was in a strong Spanish area.

 jek

Jazll, I totally agree with you.  If you want to come to Spain and enjoy the climate and wish to stay with English speakers and choose not to learn Spanish, then good luck to you but don't expect the Spanish to speak English to you.  Accept that you will have translator costs on those occasions when you go to the medico or whatever. 

Chopera, my apologies.  I obviously read into your post something that wasn't there.

jek - no problem.

BTW my litmus test for determining whether a man has fully integrated into Spanish culture or not is if they kiss male in laws on both cheeks (I'm not quite there yet)