The Bar Association and accountability of law firms

You are entitled to your view, Ads, as I am to mine.  And you are entitled to voice your concerns, and submit petitions.  After all if you are posting on a public forum you are bound to hear all kinds of opinions.  Anyone who is honest at all is not going to ell you what you want to hear.  So accusing me or anyone else of being over-defensive is a little silly, don't you think?  It certainly will not help your cause.

You did say: "this is just typical of Spanish rhetoric, whether this be from Government Officials, to the general public, including those who you refer to as being happy in Spain."

Patricia

Agreed, we need to focus on the topics Patricia.

Maria

It is this exact same point that we have discussed before and that Faro has recognised. There are no effective disincentives in place for legal professionals to discontinue their malpractice that brings the profession into disrepute (corrupt practices), so long as their legal indemnity alone is the sole means of accountability. In successful cases, the insurance company pays out (if you are lucky enough to gain a lawyer that is willing to take a case against another), but they will just carry on in the same vein. The ultimate accountability should also, as Faro has demonstrated, be the accountability to their legal professional body, who should be transparent with the information (identify the fines imposed and to whom, whether struck off, etc) Only when there is self regulation of this form from within the Spanish legal profession will it be possible to say that clients are protected from futher abuse, and that the transparency has achieved its aim and acts as an effective deterrent.

We are grateful that you continue to identify the existing processes that are available, and hopefully there will be successful cases but we are equally concerned that this malpractice will just continue unregulated.

As for the delays within the justice system, these also should be regulated by inbuilt effective and realistic time constraints, otherwise again this malpractice of "playing the system of indefinite delays" will continue to compromise the application of law.

 Well... send a proposal to the General Council of Lawyers,. maybe through the UK Law Society, or the UK Embassy.... 

It is true that Bar associations need to be more active on discipline. Unpopular as I may sound to my spanish colleagues, it is not anything but true that we need more control and discipline for the benefit of all.

Good idea Maria "send a proposal to the General Council of Lawyers,. maybe through the UK Law Society, or the UK Embassy. "

Faro are you in a position to action this, or have you already explored this avenue?

Thank you for your honest response also Maria. We are aware of the realities and the battle ahead but it always take courage to follow through new ideas and mechanisms to provide "control and discipline to the benefit of all".

Ads - I greatly admire the work you do but I do not greatly believe in all this letter writing and petitions to bodies outside of Spain asking for them to intervene.

All you get back is weak letters offering sympathy and then saying not much they can do to interfere in another countries affairs etc.

If the members and the elected president do not see the need for change then it will not happen.

Other than that it is for the Spanish government to decide that colegios cannot self regulate and to then regulate that sector and set up a regulatory or disciplinary committee but this is most unlikely in Spain.

The other option is for good lawyers and good firms to come together and create a quality kitemark and branding and to then promote that standard or brand. eg www.qualitysolicitors.com

The other option as I mentioned previously is for the colegios to create a quality kitemark and have members trained example the UKs Quality Conveyancing Scheme with frims putting in place standard procedures and being audited http://www.lawsociety.org.uk/productsandservices/accreditation/conveyancingqualityscheme.page

This type of approach can help weed out bad firms and bad lawyers and then it is for the public to choose properly accredited lawyers/firms.

Sigh.  Once more I ask: : who is going to force all these desired changes?

Patricia

That's my point also it must come from within the profession.

Members themselves must want it and good lawyers and good firms must unite.

In the UK you could almost say PII requirements to some extent regulate the profession in that if a solicitor cannot get PII then he/she cannot really practise other than shelter for 2 years in the assigned risks pool and pay 25% in fees as premium which is not really viable.

An English solicitor with a bad track record in uninsurable so he/she may stay on the roll but he cannot practise.

They're going to love  it Faro when you tell them the need to do/be the same as U.K. solicitors.

Who is going to impose the "must"?

Patricia

The "must" will come from the effects of clients moving across to those law firms prepared to follow this route, perhaps????

Spanish colegios need to reform.

We have and are seeing a lot of change in the UK.

Spanish colegios could learn a lot from the Law Society of England & Wales.

We have seen joint initatives in the past in terms of jointly run training courses between the law society of England & Wales and the colegio de abogados de Malaga.

Spain is not the U.K., Faro.  Neither is France, Italy or anywhere else you care to name.

They will do things at their own pace, but then you know that. 

Patricia

This is so frustrating. To say this is the way its done in Spain is not good enough when we are witnessing such levels of ongoing abuse.

The point is, it's the lack of time constraints on legal processes that have compromised all too many people in Spain, resulting in the non implementation of existing laws and thereby denying due recompense as per the law, and without adequate compensation structures in place this can only be classed as abuse.

I know this relates to the Property scandal but it is a similar aspect with negligence, lack of due diligence, inconsistent judgements, conflict of interests and independence (lawyers in league with developer) etc All requiring some effective regulation to protect citizens from abuse, which if a country is unprepared to consider as a basic requirement, presumably has to be enforced from elsewhere.

It is obvious to me that unless Spanish law firms are forced to comply with regulation it will almost definitely not happen. Unless, that is,as Faro has explained, good firms can come together to initiate this process and clients respond accordingly (thus cutting off the income for those who refuse to follow good practice).

I am trying to say, Ads: who will do the enforcing?  Who?  There does not seem to be much help in that direction from the EU authorities.  And who is going to shepherd the thousands of clients in the direction of the "right" lawyers?  Blacklists can be a very subjective exercise.  Can you imagine compiling a list in two columns.  A blacklist on one side with the names, addresses and details of all the "unsuitable" lawyers, and in the other column all the "good" ones, and then having copies of that list posted up in airports, train stations, ferry ports, etc. throughout Spain so that those arriving can take their choice. 

Another question:  have your written to one or more Spanish law societies expressing the views and ideas for change you express on this forum?  And if so, what kind of reply, if any, did you get?

Patricia

No.

I am not a lawyer.

Whether you are a lawyer or not you can still write to the law society to complain about what you see as malpractice in a given area.

Would that not be a start?  If no one complains to the law societies they are obviously not going to take much action.

Patricia

Far better and effective to come from those within the legal profession I would have thought.

Complaints relating to individual cases have already been given to the CGPJ but to no avail by the way.

Not necessarily.  Besides, who is going to make any lawyer write to his/her law society.  It would be very laborious IMO to get ready and send a circular to every lawyer or law firm in the country, urging them to take the steps you feel are appropriate.

I do not see that you or the group you represent would stand to lose anything by writing to the law society or law societies to which the offending lawyers belong.   Nothing ventured nothing gained.

Patricia

I don't represent a group I am an individual fighting my corner, trying at every opportunity to research and keep people informed of any facts learned along the way, as do so many others on this forum. I am a supporter of Keith and Ruth and those others who have formed petitions to date that relate to the property scandal, so please don't assume that I represent a group.

I try and look for solutions wherever possible, try and support, but there are only so many hours in the day and like so many others, spend far too much time defending our position. I am grateful for input and suggestions but I do not aspire, nor have the ability to do as Ruth and Keith have done to date. But I will keep supporting and doing as much background work as I can for their cause and my own personal fight for justice.

Like many others, we find ourselves in a position of ignorance in terms of detailed knowledge regarding all the issues, and depend upon those who have knowledge to keep us informed, to keep us advised, to steer us in the right direction. And when we make suggestions, it is not always in the full knowledge of the facts, which makes us vulnerable as individuals. Nevertheless, by standing outside the box, just sometimes we make suggestions from which a solution can be gained. And we depend upon those good people within the system to follow through occasionally with our suggestions, where they merit response.

You can only imagine the feelings of frustration that accompany our fight for justice, to find that every step of the way we meet with barriers, with those who lead us towards yet another barrier , as we spend an inordinate amount of time trying to gather evidence along the way to further our cause, only to be met once again with such blatent lies as quoting  "a competent system of justice ",

Enough! I have work to do elsewhere I'm afraid.

Well, it was a suggestion, and perhaps Keith and/or Ruth might like to take it up. 

Any help is good help, Ads.

Patricia