Seeking advice about selling

Very interesting last couple of posts. Kind of puts to bed the myth of the so-called "buyer's market". Not necessarily that easy, unless you're dumb enough to snap up one of the "bargains" on a golf course or urbanization in the middle of the wilderness that nobody ever really wanted and never really will. I believe this glut of useless properties make up of the bulk of the extraordinary figures bandied about in the press of unsold properties. Undoubtedly they are dragging the rest of the market down to an extent, as well as banks' lack of lending etc., and until they are flogged off for tuppence or better still just bulldozed, the market will not stabilize or regain any sanity. I think buyers looking for good quality homes in top locations sometimes have unrealistic expectations of how cheap they can get them for though.

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 As I read through the comments in this forum, a definite feeling of nausea developed!  It is such a shame that some estate agents are really their own enemies and do such damage to other agents who are trying to do a professional and serious job providing a service that most sellers need.   So general responses to some of the comments:

1.  An agent should only ask for a listing fee if they are paying for extra marketing such as dedicated magazine advertising (featuring that particular property in detail), or any other special promotion.  Just putting the property onto their website and details in the window of the office should never be charged for.  At an absolute push, the agent may charge to obtain a Nota Simple if the owner is unable to provide it, or any other relevant documentation.  This is how the majority of agents work - regardless of whether they are Spanish or English.  

2.  Listing a property takes time (going to visit, taking pictures, checking documentation, loading up details onto the net, producing window cards, mailing out details to prospective leads etc.) and more time is eaten up by showing the property and eventually (hopefully) finding a buyer.  This is covered by the agent's commission in case of a sale.   The listing agent receives NOT A PENNY if the property is then sold directly by the owner or by another agent.   

3.  There are 'English' agents who very often employ a variety of nationalities (including spanish) in order to service the needs of their international clientele - I do not understand therefore, why some many members are pushing you to deal with Spanish agents.  If you list your property with a spanish agent, then they will be bringing in more spanish buyers but, as mentioned, they will push you VERY hard on the price.  There is a tendency for the spanish to feel that they always know better than any foreigner - a myth!

4.  Estate agents work very hard in order to sell property - granted, there are alot of unscrupulous fly by nights around but you could say the same about car mechanics, car dealers, lawyers, accountants.  They are not all 'out to cheat you' and it's simply a matter of finding one that you feel comfortable with .... in the same way as you'd source any other professional.

OK - I feel better now.... sorry but I just had to get that off my chest  :)

 

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Hi, now you have a name.  Maybe what the old farmer down the road always said to me is even more relevant today, "Treat everyone as a rogue until you know different".  A handshake or word of mouth does not seem to mean anything to a lot of people today.  Regards Peter

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 Clearly, there is only one correct  price for anything; the price agreed between a willing seller and a willing buyer. This market encourages buyers to seek what are viewed by sellers as bargains and look at.deals presented as distressed sales  Perhaps a more realistic way of viewing the market is to ignore terms like distressed and bargain, emotive terms like that lead to confrontational attitudes and barriers between buyers and sellers.

When i look for a property I decide what i think it is worth to me. the opinion of so called experts means little since they can only work on historic data. If the value to me is below the value needed (or hoped for) by a buyer then negotiation is required. I need to strike a bargaining position which will lead to an outcome acceptable not only to me but also to the vendor. If my offer is too low all I do is make the negotiation easier for the next potential buyer.

For me to accept the vendor's view of what a property is worth, regadless of the  of the market, is not sensible since the seller has the exact opposite need to mine. Somewhere between the sellers dream price and my view of value lies the real price. Fine in theory but only if both sides understand the principles of negotiation. 

In a buyer's market and make no mistake this market is totally dependant on buyers who have spare cash, offers are likely to be outside a vendor's comfort zone. Consdier first the alternative. Clearly alternatives differ between a situation where the vendor is living in the property and can choose when to move and where the vendor needs, for whatever reason to be elsewhere. In the latter case one must consider much more than the capital gained from a sale.

Every month brings additional costs which more the vendor poorer and msut be considered alongside any offer. Properties deteriorate when in use, they deteriorate even fater whn left empty and soon become a black hole. If the vendor has any equity in the property consideration also needs to be given as to how that could be remployed. Could it ay off a credit card bill and save 20 - 30% interest on the borrowing? Even an investment at 5% and they are available, wil return more than an empty holiday home. Are you buying your car in the UK with a loan while yoru Spanish car gathers dust?

Website like this one are potentially invaluable marketplaces where savy sellers and buyers can meet. To the point where I've now decided to advertise for a property! 

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 Roberto, as I already own a property in Spain, I almost wish I could agree with you, but I have already viewed too many good quality properties in towns and villages to believe that it is only the rubbish that is available.  What stops me actually purchasing is the slight feeling that new properties are coming onto the market all the time.   Whatever the property is - rubbish (by this I mean very small and  in an isolated postion) or a nice village or rural property, they are around 50% less than they were in 2007.   Some of the really overpriced developments which have now been finished off by the banks, are indeed being offered at much less than 50%.   

I would like to believe that having a lovely place, in a desirable location, was protecting me from price drops but alas, I do not believe that. 

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Very WISE WORDS  Delaluzian

VERY informative and interesting VIEW

Rod

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Brian, I think a lot depends on your reason for purchasing. Buying a permanent home involves different decisions than buying a holiday home or an investment property with a view to rental income. If you are buying your permanent home, emotional factors (needs) will probably ultimately outweigh purely economic ones.  When you find the "right" place, you will pay a little more than perhaps you really want to, just to secure it, and not worry too much about fluctuations in its theoretical value thereafter. (Nobody really "needs" a holiday home or to "invest" in property, so financial considerations play the most important role in these cases). I'm not sure what your motive for buying is though. You say you already own a property in Spain, but you're looking at buying another. If you are thinking of doing so just because there's a lot of seemingly cheap property available now, I fear you may end up chasing your own tail. You say yourself you are put off because you think there may be a better offer just around the corner, and you mention the bewildering amount of property on the market, but personally I don't think there's any more or less than at any other time (excepting of course the pointless empty developments built during the boom that are of no use to anybody)

I dislike the terms buyers market and sellers market. They imply that at a given time there is a glut of property for sale and no buyers, and that sellers will accept any ridiculous offer, and at other times there's a shortage of property but a never ending line of gullible people willing to pay any price the vendor asks. On the one hand you have buyers who will not buy for fear they are paying too much, and on the other you have sellers who put the price up everytime someone offers the asking price, and end up never selling, because they fear letting it go too cheap. Stalemate. I have experienced these scenarios both during the "boom" and now during the "bust". Delaluzian defined the "correct" price for any property pretty well, I think. The problem at the moment is there is so much fear all round, due to the ongoing global crisis and uncertainty about the immediate future, which is making it harder for buyers and sellers to come together and agree on a price that suits both.

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My definition of a property value has never altered - it is simply the price someone is willing to pay.  That is why I think you are wrong when you talk about developments that people never wanted in the first place.  Sadly, it was the northern Europeans pushing the prices higher and higher, for smaller and smaller units (and more remote) - but make no mistake, they were in demand.  I have also said before my reason for purchasing again is that I want a bigger (and better? sea view?) than the one I bought at the time (which we have used extensively and hopefully family will continue to use).  We have owned holiday properties over three countries (four if you count the UK) and NEVER bought to let, or to appreciate.   So that is where i stand and that is no secret - I have said it on many threads.   Even taking into account the exchange rate, we can purchase a pretty substantial property, in comparison to the much more modest apartment we bought 7 years ago.  This would indeed give us the option of living permanantly in Spain, in a way that our 70 square meter apartment  does not.   You may be right in that there has always been plenty of property to buy, but I think what is very diferent is the number of distress sales.   And this is what we are looking at.  From the direct contact we have had with a couple of owners trying to sell - I am afraid they will accept any ridiculous offer!!!!    Sad - but true.   

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The banks currently own an awful lot of new homes, many unfinished, that they took off bankrupt developers. Many of these went bust because they built stuff for which there was never sufficient demand.
Sorry for making you repeat yourself, I obviously haven't been following your other posts, but I think in a way you prove my point. You haven't bought yet because your primary need is to feel like you have got a bargain. Or because you simply haven't found that special place that ticks all your boxes. But we do agree that the basic value of any object is mor or less what someone is willing to pay for it.

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 I do agree with a lot you say Roberto, and I am certainly not offended at having to repeat myself.  There are many different threads and most people dip in and out.   I was just making the point that I absolutely believe, have always believed, and will continue to believe (and have stated on various threads) that any property is only worth whatever someone is prepared to pay for it.  And I also agree with you re the banks and the unfinished homes.  From what I have seen, the developments being finished by the banks are amongst the cheapest.  It just happens that what we are after is a reasonably substantial villa, likely to be in a town or village, and likely to have been lived in as opposed to rented out.   But I don't take your view that all of those developments are rubbish - this is simply not true.  There are plenty of nice, and good sized apartments or houses, though I do agree that there was a lot of rubbish being thrown up.   I have always been sort of relieved that the building stopped.   But it stopped because people in the UK and northern Europe generally ceased to feel they could afford it, not because they didn't want it.   If miraculously the economy turned around and everyone felt wealthy again, I have no doubt the building would start again.  Just as a point of interest, as a previous owner of property in the US, I get mailings about 'opportunities' there, particularly in Florida.   Prices have fallen there massively, and while they had the same overbuild in some areas, the US builder does not generally throw up small or tat.  Builders build to demand the world over, and while the northern europeans were happy with apartments of 50 square meters, that is what they would get. 

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To all those people trying to buy a property in Spain...I wasted so much time advertising for what I was looking for, receiving email alerts from an assortment of property sites...waiting for replies that often never come when i have made online enquiries and so on. What I have discovered is that the only way that I have been able to find properties to view is to do hard leg work...do research on whatever town/region you are interested in, make a list of estate agents in that area (google)  then go there and trawl around the streets looking in agents windows etc you will find agents that dont seem to exist anywhere online and you can speak face to face about what you want...they will often take you there and then to view any suitable properties on their books. I have found an assortment of properties to view ( an offer has been made + I await a reply) Above all you must speak at least basic Spanish or be prepared to take a translator with you, my Spanish is not perfect but I have been able to communicate and make myself understood with many agents. (also google translate is quite good...not perfect but keep it simple)

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Mmmmm your enquiry about paying up front to a company marketing to Russians etc. ask yourself this simple question, would you pay an agent up front in the UK? Would you believe he had buyers waiting to buy your property? So £250 doesn't seem a lot but makes a good income if you get 20 people a month to cough up. Apply the sense you would use if you were selling in the Uk.

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Why would anyone want to move, we live in Spain we have the best things in life very cheap to live here, where can you live and get a MENU DEL DIA for 3€. Nice friendly people, no traffic jams, very good tarmacked roads. Peaceful. We cannot list it all and we have the luxury of living in a cave house with all Modern Conveniences.

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 I don't know, where can you buy a Menu for €3, anything I've found which is worth eating is more like €10.

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Would send you a couple of Menus but do not know how to do it on your web site

 

This is what I had from the menu.

Revuelto campero = Scrambled egg Green beans from the campo.

Filetes de cerdo a la pimienta = Fillet of pork with pepper sauce.

Hojaldrinas con choco = Puf postre with chocolate.

And wine.
 

This message was last edited by cantarranas on 01/03/2012.

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This message was last edited by stevebatchelor on 02/03/2012.

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Getting back to the topic of selling property for a moment: some interesting stuff from a well known Spanish property site (pm me for details if required) that corroborates some of the points I made earlier on this thread (my bold) -

Banking reforms being pushed through by the new Government will hit holiday-home prices the hardest, according to a recent article in the Spanish financial daily Cinco Días.

The price of main homes in Spanish cities, in contrast, has already adjusted enough, argues Josep Oliver, Economics Professor at the Autonomous University of Barcelona. “There is not much room left for price declines,” the article quotes him as saying. “Discounts of up to 50pc are only being considered for holiday-homes or unfinished new-developments.”
 
A mismatch between supply and demand means lower house prices might not stimulate the market. “Whilst the stock grows in holiday-home areas, demand is focused on big cities and provincial capitals where there is little excess and prices have already adjusted,” explains Oliver. So if the financial reforms put downward pressure on prices, it might only be felt on the coast, especially the least popular destinations with too much supply.

Castellón, a relatively unheard of destination with a new airport that nobody yet flies to, is responsible for around 20pc of the entire Spanish glut of new holiday-homes. New developments in Castellón like Marina D’or development help explain why.

The excess inventory of new homes in Malaga province is relatively minor in comparison. According to local builders there are less than 20,000 new homes on the market, most of which will have sold in the next couple of years. The Costa del Sol is a mature market with good access and diversified international demand where almost everything sells in due course.

The Costa del Azhar is a different story. Who will buy 114,000 new holiday-homes there in any reasonable time-frame? What if prices get really cheap there? Will that help, or is there no demand at any price?

***

There are around 16,700 new homes on the market in Malaga province – home to the Costa del Sol – most of which will have been sold by the end of 2013, says José Prado, President of the Costa del Sol developers’ association (ACP), in a recent interview in the Spanish press.
 
But some of the new homes built during the boom will never be sold, says Prado, because of their poor quality or bad locations. “There are homes built in those years that can’t be sold and will have to be used for time-share or transformed into retirement homes,” he said.

The other option for the dregs of the new-home stock is demolition, as suggested by José Luis Suarez – IESE business school professor and Spain’s leading real estate market expert.“Many of the new homes in stock are flats of poor quality or located in undesireable areas,” said Suarez in a recent interview with local newspaper La Opinion de Malaga. “The stock will have to be digested by the market over time but I will tell you one thing: there are some developments that will have to be demolished because they cannot be sold. It’s something we have yet to see in Spain…..though there have been precedents of this kind in other countries.”

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 Roberto, I don't remember anyone saying anything that radically disagreed with you.  I would only question your dismissal of all new build property on the coast as rubbish - as I do not believe this to be the case.  

Also, we are looking at some pretty attractive properties in Madrid - still for sale - still discounted - next month.

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Neither do I, I was merely backing up some of the points I did make. And neither do I remember dismissing all new builds on the coast as rubbish. There's plenty of good quality stuff been built in good (established) locations, including on the coast. I referred to (and so do these articles) the huge amount of property built in locations where nobody ever wanted to buy and probably never will. Invariably these are places that you will not even be able to find on a map more than 4 or 5 years old.

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