DENUNCIAS BY OWNERS LETTING ‘ILLEGALLY’

Has anyone who lets (either those who think they are legal or others)  made a denuncia against either the key holder or agent for letting without their knowledge?

If you have,  would you please share your experience as there are some owners who think that by making a denuncia they may land themselves with problems concerning their own legality.

PS if you want to ‘expand / widen’  the thread,  or as some would say ‘go off thread’ please feel free.

windtalker good answer

as has been mentioned in previous threads about the fault with the denuncia system and shopping people

people would be more inclined to report a crime if they can do it anon and having an anon system of reporting would help. but as we are in Spain the rules are different which allows more people to take risks and get away with it

So now we have the situation where those without FLO's for whatever reason ( and some of these will be owners who may have been unwittingly denied FLOs at the point of sale... Or have been allowed to purchase properties without FLOs in place..... Lack of due diligence by the conyeyancing lawyer or notary) and they will be at risk from key holders or agents who have hidden agendas/malintent (i.e. renting out properties without owners' consent or knowledge) in full knowledge that the owner is at risk if they issue a denuncia on the abusive key holder/agent.

This situation re lack of FLO and lack of due diligence, notarial compliance, abusive agents/keyholders needs sorting once and for all as it is making a mockery of the conveyancing and rental system in Spain. It must be a nightmare for all those continuing to be exposed to this  ongoing "illegality" issue.

people would be more inclined to report a crime if they can do it anon and having an anon system of reporting would help.

It stops all those malicious allegations though which neighbours, friends and acquaintances are prone to make when they fall out or are jealous.

In Spain when one makes a denunicia the law says making any allegation which the person does not know to be true or believes to be false is a punishable offence.

“Article 456” of the Spanish “Criminal Law” (Código Penal).

In UK there is a similar law which applies when one is making a written witness statement under the C.J. Act.  There is a certificate to that effect at the top of the witness statement form.   In Spain sometimes  a similar certificate / paragraph is included within the denuncia

Yes it does stop people making malicious allegations, but it also puts off those whih a genuine grievance, because they fear a brick might go through their windows or their tyres get slashed

johnzx

there are always 2 sides to what system is best - but we are in Spain and the rules are clear

for me the risk of mailicious anon false allegations, as you decribe them, far out weigh the benefit to society of reducing crime / catching criminals

false allegations are a pain for those falsely accused (and can waste police time) but at the end of the day if you have nothing to hide and done nothing wrong why worry

Making a  false allegation in UK you can also be prosecuted - if caught etc

, ..............  for me the risk of malicious anon false allegations,  ...........   far out weigh the benefit to society of reducing crime / catching criminals

Not being able to make anonymous denunias (that is usually a person making a report of a crime commited against them)  does not stop citizens giving useful info to the police, which may assist them to prevent crime and or arrest offenders.   I am personally aware of such info being supplied without a need for the informant to disclose his/her  I.D.

This message was last edited by johnzx on 31/08/2015.

johnzx

I am personally aware of such info being supplied without a need for the informant to disclose his/her  I.D.

Please advise the official procedure, contacts etc and how this can be done in Spain to report illegal taxi drivers, illegal key holders / property management or any illegal workers etc. as these may not be commiting a crime aagainst me but they are commiting a crime

Please advise the official procedure, contacts etc and how this can be done in Spain to report illegal taxi drivers, illegal key holders / property management or any illegal workers etc. as these may not be committing a crime against me but they are committing a crime

‘Official procedure’ is a bit of an over the top description.  People grassing their neighbours in UK do not have an ‘official procedure’ they just tell the competent authority, police, tax office etc.

When I mentioned people in Spain giving info,  it was for what most might call serious crime, rather than misdemeanours,  nevertheless, I am pretty sure if you choose you could report the ‘offenders’ you list to the competent authorities  for dealing with them.   Examples:-    Local police for taxis, Hacienda for tax dodging etc.  If they do not feel they have more important things to do,  they may well be interested. But with terrorism, robberies, murders, burglaries etc. I would not hold my breath.

Shame Spain does not have a process like crimestoppers / crimewatch, neighbourhood watch schemes etc. in the UK. These amongst other processes have great success in catching criminals of all types, many with the help of joe public anonymously via phone or online

As these are  supported and recognised by the authorities they could be deemed as official procedures

Sorry but i do not see illegal taxis or tax fiddling or abusing peoples property as a lesser crime, yes they are not murder or rape but still pretty serious crimes

As an aside

i think many countries, UK included, no longer distinguish crimes between felony and misdemeamour or even use these terms

i think many countries, UK included, no longer distinguish crimes between felony and misdemeanours or even use these terms

But you were asking about Spain where they do distinguish.

Sorry but i do not see illegal taxis or tax fiddling or abusing peoples property as a lesser crime, yes they are not murder or rape but still pretty serious crimes

OK, So now you know who to give the info to.  Good luck.

johnzx

I was not asking if spain distinguishes between felony & misdemeanours I know they do simply making a comment as an aside

I would geuss fraud is not a misdemeanour is any country

Also pointing out to you that the UK does have procedures in place

 People grassing their neighbours in UK do not have an ‘official procedure’ they just tell the competent authority, police, tax office etc.

Sorry for the drift but lets see if we can get an answer to your original post of anyone with actual experience of taking a denuncia out

Maybe also ask if anyone has actually reported an illegal let (or any crime) anonymously in Spain

Sorry for the drift................    No problem I did say extending the thread was no problem.

Maybe also ask if anyone has actually reported an illegal let (or any crime) anonymously in Spain

Not wanting to split hairs, but an illegal let I think could only be reported by a person involved, owner or tenant, as no one else would be competent   (have the knowledge to be sure what they were saying was true rather than a rumour which could amount to any offence under Article 456) and that would require a denuncia.

I think it unlikely that anyone who has grassed someone, say an illegal taxi, tax defrauder etc. is likely to 'put their head above the parapet' and admit it here, but who knows ? 

"Make sure you are fully legal and have the appropriate licence in place it is called a TURISTCA licence if you have not got one it is illegal to rent your property out to holiday makers"

As far as I am aware, so far this much needed (IMHO) law has only been introduced in Barcelona for private lettings of apartments. Unless you are running a business, elsewhere in Spain there is no legal requirement to licence a private holiday let. Or?....

As far the original question, I am personally more interested to know if anyone has experience of or heard of anyone successfully denouncing, or taking any other action against a landlord who lets his apartment to bad tennants - in particular, holiday makers. Although logically the tennants (and their behaviour) should be the responsibility of the landlord, in practice it seems impossible to force the landlord to deal with badly behaving tennants, or even force them to provide the community with a contact number in case of trouble, and unless an actual crime has been committed, it's pointless calling the police. 

On the subject of anonymity when reporting a crime etc., I understand how this could be abused, but a personal experience of mine I found rather alarming: I was witness to a vicious assault, and whilst I realised that I may have to stand up in court in full view of the (3) accused, I did not expect to have to hang around with them in a corridor outside the courtroom before the hearing. Very disconcerting. Even worse for the victim, who also had to wait in the same area as his attackers.

This is a useful article re letting

http://www.spanishpropertyinsight.com/2015/03/06/explaining-the-latest-changes-to-spains-rental-laws/

but it identifies the following requirements about tourist lets (presumably rentals greater than one month in total in any one year),

The property MUST HAVE ATTAINED AN  LFO, have compliance with health and safety, security and disabled access etc, ventilated rooms, blinds or shutters, internet connection in every room, air conditioning in every room (not as a portable device) a heater in every room for winter lets Oct through April (not a portable device), first aid, cleaning service at start of rental , adequate furniture, complaints book, touristic guides, maps.

Each autonomous region may vary however so worth examining the detail in the above article. What is concerning however is the following observation “Regional governments and municipalities across Spain are clamping down on private individuals renting out their homes to tourists, to the delight of hotel lobbies. “ 

The author stresses, “ If you own property in Spain and plan to rent it out for a period exceeding one month in a year I strongly recommend you seek legal advice to comply with the obligations set forth by your Autonomous Community. “

What a shame the autonomous regions haven’t given equal attention to the need to fully resolve the problem of FLO  issuance and ongoing sale/purchase of properties without FLOs in certain regions, i.e. those who have been allowed to complete on a purchase denied of  FLO’s for whatever reason and subsequently left in limbo with their property deemed “illegal”.  Where does Notarial compliance (and conveyancing lawyers compliance) now stand in terms of the law to allow ongoing purchase/sale of properties without FLO’s in place, and for that matter address accountability of those legal professionals who have not demonstrated due diligence and significantly compromised purchasers/owners in the process ? What are the Bar Associations and Notarial Authority doing about this continuing malpractice?

I mentioned in another thread about a coincidence.    This is another:-   .

When I was at the National Police yesterday, I was asked to call a UK National, who is resident in Spain, who had, some months previously,  had his UK Vehicle Registration Plates stolen from his car. m.  The police had recovered them and they wanted him to go to the comisaria (National Police station) to collect them.

I chatted to the officer about a resident, using his car, which was on UK plates.  Whilst he agreed it was illegal, he did not make any comment about chasing the owner about it. In fact he showed no interest in the illegal use of the UK registered vehicle.

I have found that the Policia National do not seem interested in apparent ‘minor’ breaches of the law, certainly with regard to driving, motor vehicles and even  people making denuncias who have not applied for EU restoration when they should have.  However, I believe the Guardia Civil may not adopt that attitude with regard to vehicles / D/Ls etc. through.

Its should not do, if its got up to date docs ?

Its should not do, if its got up to date docs

And it is legal in Spain,,  and not being driven by a person with EU Citizen Registration or Residencia (in the case of non EU nationals)