Unpaid Community fees

Hugh

 many new owners are using the banks solicitor for cheapness

Biggest no no ever - first advice always use an independant lawyer

Of course there is a fail safe! you either get a no debt quarantee or walk away

I know there are often posters here who have little or no knowledge of the Spanish property market,  so they like the idea of having one to hold hands with. I have bought and sold a few times for myself and my son and helped  a friend or two.   I have never used a lawyer and only problems  have had is when the other party has employed one,  who wanted to how competent they were by causing unnecessary problems.

  Buying a property, apart from the cost, is more or less the same as buying anything else,  a car, furnishings even the weekly shopping etc. and most of us manage to that without the expense of a lawyer.

From reading posts, news items  etc.,  it would appear that most of those who have had nasty shocks in Spain had lawyers, against whom they had little or no claim when things went wrong.  Rather like in the UK.  I know there is the Law Society in UK but who do you pays their wages, yes lawyers!

Having had professional dealings with lawyers in UK, both in courts and in conjunction with the Law Society, I do not have a high regard for most of them.

TeamGB

I agree big no no, but that assumes some level of responsibility from the buyer how many buyers are actually knowledgeable enough to understand the legal requirements and ask for a debt certificate, most trust the lawyer and many still do not use independent advice.

"Of course there is a fail safe! you either get a no debt quarantee or walk away"

That is not a LEGAL failsafe, it relies on some correct advice or responsibility on the buyer, not always present.

As Antonio said many Brit buyers have never been used to Communal ownership and rely on what agents tell them, not always 100% true, I fear.

Many new buyers do not have the foresight to come on places like EOS for some advice

I do not disagree with john however as some lawyers are not up to it.

How on earth did john carry out buying and selling process without using a lawyer?

How on earth did john carry out buying and selling process without using a lawyer?

Perhaps my legal background as a career detective helps, albeit that it was mainly in the criminal field, but investigating complicated frauds by companies and individuals, and complex crime generally,  trains one to seek the knowledge necessary for a wide variety of circumstances.

Elementary !

But joking apart, as I said buying anything is more or less the same as buying anything else.  All need research to some extent.

Totally agree, sadly research isn't the first thing on many prospective buyers minds when they are being sold the "Dream".

Never quite thought of buying a house the same as buying a carpet or the weekly shop. 

If only it was that simple Johnzx but as we all know the conveyancing system is susceptible to all manner of complexities in Spain and a system should never depend upon purchasers having full knowledge of all those complexities!

Hence the need for legal failsafes wherever possible to mitigate the ongoing risks which are considerable.

So in this particular instance If there was a mandatory system to prevent transference of property until such time as community debts were cleared for any given property, this would mitigate the risks associated with lawyer "inefficiency" or failure to act in client's best interests with regard to outstanding community debt for said property, plus it would mitigate the risk associated with lack of prior knowledge on the purchaser's part, plus it would mitigate the ongoing risks to community finances, plus it would mitigate risks and financial consequences associated with litigation (not to mention the beneficial impact on already overstretched courts and judiciary!)  Win, win scenario!

Isn't a legal failsafe designed to prevent or mitigate consequences from system failure?

Perhaps the question then becomes how do you change the system to become mandatory? Would this require a change in the law?

Almost the perfect scenario for a commencement of an improvement in property buyers rights in Spain.

Yes it would require a change in the law but more importantly a change in many of the traditional and at times old fashioned concepts used by many especially in rural and coastal Spain.

Not sure we can look forward to a change in property laws when the country is split almost 4 equal ways, politically, no one is going to offer support to ex pat buyers.

Ads you mean a fail-safe system 'as in UK'. If so then things must have changed considerably  in the 27 years since I left.  Compared with then , the system in Spain is considerably more efficient in that it does not in general rely on lawyers, who are in it for the cash,.

Johnzx,

Do you not consider that the Notarial system currently fails in this instance where Banks have repossessed properties (from developers) and have not been made accountable to pay outstanding community debts for those properties at the point of transfer and where applicable at the point that they resell those properties?

The consequence of them not taking legal responsibility at this point, as history demonstrates, is that this only leads to abuse by the Banks which ironically requires legal intervention after the event to recoup those debts.

I am not saying the system is prefect,  but then no systems are perfect  for everyone.   Can’t please all the people all the time.  But with just over 30 year experience of owing property in Spain, buying and selling a few, I do not see any reason to say the Spanish system is in particularly all that bad.

As I have said before, apart from a couple of awkward and / or incompetent lawyers on the other side a couple of times, who appeared  annoyed because I did not used a lawyer and created silly problems 'to punish me',  I have never had any problems.  That is due in no small part, in my opinion,  to the system working.

I have never been involved in a purchase where a bank had reposed so I cannot comment from knowledge  on that type of transaction.

There are aspects which when compared with UK are fantastic.  Not needing a lawyer to make a transaction being one, which whilst in theory is possible in UK it is very difficult to do .   That with the deposit system, where parties are compensated if either side  pulls out, is another, unlike the gazumping in UK.

On a positive note, I think it would work in Spain's favour if all of these loopholes and compromising instances that have undeniably financially impacted all too many innocent purchasers (and as in this instance being discussed, communities) were analysed with an open mind and willingness to reform, and where applicable to simplfy the process (analysing from a wider perspective rather than deal with these issues in a piecemeal fashion), with a view to providing far greater consumer protection and avoidance of unnecessary litigation, without it becoming a divisive issue.

I live in hope....

As a legal professional, understanding your point of view,  I need to state that all legal systems in the world have inherent loopholes, contradictions and lacks. We, legal professionals are for making it more and more comprehensive, coherent and complete.

In regards to Law 57/68, I do think Spain´s lawyers and judges a beaufiful work for the protection of buyers whic is getting more precise as time passes

yes, let´s live in hope and..... work for all social instances to pursuit their real aim: service to people

Ps.- Community of owners site at Takelegal by CostaLuzlawyers 

You can also taka e look to:

saferent

takelegal

wemovetospain

Well said Maria

Thanks Maria, I do agree with you and John that many systems have their problems and that buying and selling in Spain is reasonably well protected provided research and due diligence is carried out and there are few complications.

Where I have an issue and I think Ads agrees is the potential abuse of Communities and others by banks who are either forced to repossess or take back a property through a Dacion.

Maria, you must have seen the document from the President of the College of Administrators to the President of the Bank of Spain pointing out the huge amounts banks owe to Communities.

From recent experience, the banks appear to admit repossession is underway BUT the process can at times take an awfully long time especially when you know for a fact that owners have handed back keys on an agreement or have simply walked away some time ago.

I repeat, experience of banks selling on without paying the fees or getting a debt certificate is getting more common.

Perhaps they hope the Town Hall or Community may not chase them.

Banks appear to be slow in understanding that receiving no mortgage payments let alone no fees being paid is bad business for them but they are reluctant to take a write down.

Repossess, take the hit, sell at discount, walk away, would make more business sense, but means losses.

I do wonder though IF banks really are being made to write down their assets to sensible values in their books rather than hanging on to wishful thinking or mortgage value.

Part of the problem is that communities, especially those started up just before the recession do not have the funds to start legal action against the banks and just hope when a new owner is found the debt will then be settled without action. I also suspectg that some repossessions are not known to the communities, we are just in the process of getting land registry details to find out who owns some on our development.

In an ideal world things would be better but as we are not we just have to deal with things as they are and I find that sites like this are a very big help in approaching problems. I have found the same in the UK with a site I use where I have had much more helpful advice than from a paid solicitor.

Antonio1:

Yes, the work to verify current ownership of properties gets very difficult as Banks are oftenly not registering ownership in Land Registry.

A judge can  help you through preliminary diligences to obtain that info

As said, by Law, they are liable of all unpaid community fees from three years ago.

Good luck!

Maria

Ps.- You ca check our Community of owners site here

saferent

takelegal

wemovetospain

This message was last edited by mariadecastro on 26/01/2016.

Antonio

Sounds like you are doing so but first thing is to get Administrator to apply for a Nota Simple at Land Registry, does not cost much but will give last named owner, mortgage holder and any other claim from Town Hall etc.

The Administrator can contact and chase owner or bank with mortgage etc. to claim fees or you can try a specialist debt collection agency on a no win no fee basis or instruct lawyer to commence Monitrio process in Spain, costs can be added to debt.

Do not confuse action in UK to Spain.

Hugh_Man: 

The problem is that in many occasions, Banks are not registering ownership after repossession and therefore, despite being the new legal owners, obliged to pay Community fees, a Land Registry search does not offer to you the real data on current ownership.

In these cases, Comunity would ned to ask a Judge to help them to obtain info for the claim

Maria

Ps.- You ca check our Community of owners site here

saferent

takelegal

wemovetospain

Maria,

Thanks as ever for your endeavours with regard to "We, legal professionals are for making it more and more comprehensive, coherent and complete. " but what mechanism exists in the system for good lawyers to feedback and identify problem areas and effective solutions to the legal authorities, when patterns of compromising behaviour by the Banks are identified (such as reported in this thread).

Do good lawyers have an opportunity to express their observations and do they look for solutions that could address the sensitive issue relating to mitigating loopholes, which if implemented have the potential to restrict the need for  litigation (such as mandatory registration/ mandatory payment of debt)?