Leak in apartment

Hi,

I am hoping I can get some advice. I own an apartment on the first floor and there is an apartment below. The occupier below has advised there is water entering their apartment and has assumed it is from my apartment.I contacted my insurance company (UK based) and they have advised they will pay for trace and access damage but not wear and tear or damage to the apartment below. The occupier below must claim  for damage from their insurer.

I had a plumber assess the situation and they have advised they cannot definitely confirm it is coming from my apartment unless they remove the ceiling from the apartment below. My problem with this is if it turns out not to be my apartment causing the leak I will be liable for this work.  My water is turned off yet there is still a leak going in to the property below.

I have been advised the occupiers below should claim off their insurance and if the damage has been caused by my property their insurance company should claim liability off my insurance company. Their insurers are a Spanish firm.

Has anyone had any experience in who should be claiming what when there is a leak potentially involving 2 properties?

The law generally is that the flat downstairs does not have any redress unless they can establish that the water damage was caused by the gross negligence of the occupants of the flat upstairs.  Gross negligence is accepted as being a rarity - eg letting the bath overflow will probably not constitute gross negligence, but doing so and then going out leaving the bath still overflowing despite being told probably will.

The entire building should be insured for it's full replacement value joined by all the owners under under one policy and the cost divided and paid under the service charge.  Then the damage is covered and the conflict does not arise - in Spain this isn't always done, which is absolutely absurd.

Your UK broker/insurer is quite right.  You have no liability for the problem.  Their agreeing to pay for trace & access expenses is actually quite generous.  It is the downstairs flat's problem, which as stated should be picked up by the communal buildings insurance.

Good luck.

Thanks Acer this is just what I thought but trying to get the occupier and her insurance to understand this is a challenge. 

I will look into what the community insurance covers. 

Acer is not correct.

First the owner below must contact their own insurance company, they will pay to determine where the leak is coming from (you may have to pay first and claim the money back). If it is the apartment above (yours) then the insurance company will ask you for details of your insurance company and claim the money from them to repair the leak.

If the leak is found to be a "community" problem then the community insurance will pay.

Generally speaking if the leak is within or connected to your property then your insurance company will pay. if it is "community" property (drains etc) then the community insurance company will pay.

Why on earth would you want the flat owners and the commnuity to both insure the same building?  This is just duplication and lines the pockets of the insurers and brokers.

I've seem some daft arrangements where the communal areas are insured separately!  An absolute nonsense.  In a multi storey building you become reliant on each other so what happens if the building is destroyed and the owner of a ground floor flat fails to insure?  How do you re-build the floors above?!!!

The entire building, in it's wider definition, should be insured once against the full range of events, including the government consorcio perils, for the full replacement value in joint interests. Any other arrangement with a block of flats will be a Mickey Mouse arrangement with duplication, uncertainty and aggro as kswanny is experiencing.

Part of the problem is that the standard of training and technical knowledge in Spain is appalling.  Too many insurance sales staff are employed without even basic training that would not be allowed in northern Europe - they would be closed down by their regulator.  In Spain there is no regulation, nor any Financial Services Ombudsman when things go wrong!

You are generally far better off insuring in the UK.  If they give bad advice you can sue them with lots of consumer legislation and regulatory bodies to assist you, in Spain you are totally on your own.

Best procedure is to call your own Insurance and if they state the leak is not related to your own structure, Community of Owners Insurance is to be called

Dear Maria,

I have respect for your contributions, but I regret I cannot understand the logic of the system.

Please can you explain why each owner of a flat in Spain is expected to insure their part of the building yet the building is also often insured by the community.  I realise that they both have an insurable interest, but so will the banks/mortgage providers/leaseholders/tenants - should they all effect buildings insurance?  Is this not duplication?

In the UK the system is that the building is insured once and the interests of all parties is automatically included under the policy.  This seems a better, simpler and no doubt cheaper arrangement.

In your post you suggest that kswanny should contact their own insurance and ask their insurers if the leak is related to their part of the structure.  But how will they know?  The pipe is not accessible.  It may well be from a communal pipe, when does this pipe become the responsibity of another flat owner?  What happens if the community policy insurers disagree?  This seems fraught with problems and delays.

Why isn't the building insured just once protecting the insurable interest of all parties?  Then if a claim occurs there is no doubt as to which insurer should arrange repairs.

The premium for the community policy will be paid for by by the flat owners within their Service Charge/Community fees.  So why should they duplicate this and effect their own insurance?

I would much appreciate your clarification.

If you own an apartment in a block, no matter how many in the block, surely its good sense to insure your own apartment and goods to protect yourself from accidents such as like mentioned, after all as it's known even a single apartment can have a drastic accident like a fire contained to your own area, and if it was the fault of the home owner, or proved to be within the home you could hardly expect the community insurance to pay, even if you pay a collective buildings insurance.

When you cover yourself and home you then don't / shouldn't come up with any future problems over who pays, or wont pay.

How much can a single apartment insurance be against piece of mind.

It really is easy.

Everything in your apartment and connected to it is "yours" and therefore you should insure it aginst any accidents/damage.

The "community" insures everything outside of your aprtment and not connected to your apartment.

So, if the leak (for instance) is connected to your shower/toilet then it is your leak.

If the leak is from a community drain (main drain) then the community has to deal with the problem.

As a President i have seen many leaks in our urbanisation, and they have all been solved with ease - sometimes by the community (if it was a community pipe) or by an owner (if the leak was connected to their property.

Not difficult believe me - unless someone makes it difficult!!

That´s it Acer.

Damage can come from part of the building which is considered as " privative" or from part of the building which is considered " community owned"

1.  Do I own some of the common elements? 

Yes you  co-own them.  You are the exclusive owner of your apartment and co-owner of the common elements: stairs, patios, yards, entrances, elevators, structural elements, power supplies´ installations, pools, gardens, tennis courts, common facades, roof…

2. How do I know which are "my" common elements of my Community of Owners?

The chart of individual and common elements is a Notary deed, the deed of Horizontal divisionwhich is granted when the building is finished.

It is a document which describes the building as a general unit and every flat or premise individually, with indication of surface, floor and annexes such as parking garages, attics or storage rooms.

Thanks for all the input it's much appreciated. I can only go off what my insurers told me which is as the downstairs flat is experiencing the damage they should go through their insurers and claim liability from mine, if the problem derived from my plumbing. Im not sure if Spanish insurers are different  

For ease I think I will do the trace and access repairs through my my insurers as they have ok'd this and any other damage they will have to claim themselves. 

CostaBlade,

You clearly do not have any practical experience.

Your examples are all about "leaks" but what about a serious loss - say a fire or explosion?  You may then have a problem.  You cannot rebuild your flat if the flat(s) below is not insured by the owner, or the community portion where someone forgot to pay the premium.  It is an arrangement that is almost bound to produce problems as it is too complex and reliant on everyone to do everything correctly.

The only simple and safe method is that the block of flats is insured as a whole with joint interests.  This is the accepted practice throughout the UK and most other countries - the Spanish system is the oddity.

The only simple and safe method is that the block of flats is insured as a whole with joint interests.  This is the accepted practice throughout the UK and most other countries - the Spanish system is the oddity.

The property may be insured as a whole with joint interests, but it is wise, and generally accepted (Even in the UK) that you, the home renter / lease holder / person living in the apartment insure your own living space.

I would imagine that if said person had a problem and did claim on the whole buildings policy, and when renewal came round, and if the policy went up to cover these extra costs the other 99% of tenants might have something to say about that...And to you.

If you don't look after your own life, then who will, if you don't take responsibilities for your own actions then why should someone else.

Insurance in general is crap...Until you need it that is.

Totally agree with Acer, it is a massive anomaly, not to say confusing to have 2 separate insurance policies covering personal elements and Communal elements.

Surely there are numerous examples of overlap, such as fire, gas explosion, roof leak etc. That should indeed be totally covered by a full all risks insurance policy as in blocks of apartments in UK.

In UK, I pay Communal Buildings Insurance and take out Lanlords Insurance for contents.

It caused and still causes a great amount of confusion in our Community with owners originally being told, no problem as your apartment will be covered by Communal Insurance, only to find that we should all have our own buildings and contents insurance in addition, with 2 insurance companies arguing over whose responsibility it should be and generally both ducking any compensation.

As commented, it is impossible to ensure every owner has their own buildings insurance in place, far better to cover all in one policy, which appears not to be available in Spain.

Thanks for yours Hugh_man - it's good to see something on this thread which makes sense.

You can buy both community and individual buildings insurance from UK insurers and brokers.  There are many advantages, including having a policy that you can read - most of the Spanish translations I've seen are goobledegook.

But I don't share your experience baz1946.  I had a large fire claim a few years ago in UK and I got paid out in full and I could not have asked for a better service with minimal fuss.

I wish I could effect my motor insurance in the UK too.  I currently have to deal with Linea Directa on a motor insurance claim where my car was rear ended by a Spanish boy racer a few days ago.  It's seriously damaged, probably beyond economical repair.  But I was told this morning that Linea Directa may take up to 40 days to confirm if they're writing it off, or not.  I asked why so long and the reply was "this is our procedure" - to which I asked "what do I do in the meantime" and the reply was "you wait".  They really have not got a clue.

Ii's good to give a fair and balanced write up and having torn into Linea Directa yesterday and told them the errors of their ways I received an apology and a free hire car, not covered by my policy.  The problem they have is that like with the buildings insurance they are 50 out of date with their thinking.  And a bit blinkered.

In the 1970's in the UK insurers used to issue Contingent and Bankers Interest policies which were based on the same archaic logic of their system towards flats insurance.  But these disappeared as people realised it was daft that lots of people were insuring the same item, invariably with policies with differing sums insured, conditions and perils which caused lots of fun and games when a loss occurred.

This is the cause of kswanny's problem.  It should not be necessary for for kswanny to go to see various insurers to decide who should pay what.  It should be dealt with by one insurer, so there are no arguments and no duplication of premium payments!  Spanish insurers are probably happy to live in the past as this way they are receiving more premium.  No doubt this will continue whilst they have customers like CostaBlade who will happily pay more of his urbanisation's money than necessary.

Oh for the simplicity of UK property rules, leasehold apartments are normally insured by the lease owner and the cost apportioned between the individual apartment owners (according to the wording of the lease). It wouldn't be sense to leave the owners to insure their part of the block structiure themselves, this also applies to repairs, we once, owned a first floor apartment where the owner of the apartment directly beneath us stated that the roof was nothing to do with her, however her lease said differently. Contents cover is up to the apartment owner/tenant according to their individual requirements, and is not compulsary under the terms of the lease, I have no idea of Spanish insurances but I always add legal expenses cover to my UK contents policy, this even covers events such as employment disputes.

I think therein lies the crux.

UK apartment blocks are generally leasehold but freehold can be arranged by corporate ownership but the insurance of buildings stays the same under a freehold arrangement.

No one understands what the ownership is under HPA. Private elements are private, Communal elements are Communal, the fact that they can all be interelated is unimportant.

Acer is again correct, Spanish practices are way out of date and generally not fit for purpose but they hate being told they need to change, especially by us " Invaders ".

The way things have been done for years is normally good enough for them, so should be acceptable to us.

After all,  " This is Spain"

Apologies if I upset our Spanish friends with these general statements. Things are changing albeit slowly.

I agree Hugh_man.  But on the other hand there are many ways where Spain is ahead of us.  Of course at a basic level people are far nicer to each other.  I love the way that they acknowledge each other's presence when they enter a room.

I now use a Spanish dentist as the expertise, service and cost is far better than the UK.  I reckon generally their healthcare system is better than the NHS.  Thankfully I haven't had much use of it myself, but people I know are full of praise for the high level of professionalism and care.

But for me there is a complete absence of effective regulation and consumer protection in the property, legal and insurance sectors which lead to folk being fleeced far too often without any hope of redress.  I have had considerable involvement in all three of these areas and IMHO the standards are appalling and should not be tolerated.

I own an apartment.  Several years ago, I had a leak from a water pipe, clearly part of my apartment, which at the time was almost new.  I was insured for the apartment with a different company from that which covered the community. The leak caused damage to the apartment below. I notified my broker.

An assessor visited my apartment, and I was subsequently reimbursed, around 3,000 euros for damage to two carpets.  I know my downstairs neighbour’s damage was repaired but following me notifying my broker I had no other connection with that part of the claim.

My son had a leak from the apartment above his. The owner of that apartment contacted their insurance company, again not the same as the community.   An assessor visited, then a plumber came, fixed the leak and repaired the damage to my son’s property. 

In another apartment  a tenant broke a window. I notified the broker and said I did not want to be troubled with the breakage.  The window was repaired with no further action or involvement  by me. 

So in my experience no problems whatsoever with Spanish insurance companies.

Just in passing.  My broker advised me years ago that the only cover I required was ‘first fix’.    It was to cover the plaster on the walls, and the interior of the apartment, my furniture etc.  The insured value was thus considerably less than  the value of the apartment.