Uk property tax

 Roberto

But if you don't pay tax on your rental income in the UK, for example if it's less than the UK allowance, you still have to declare it in Spain, and if it's more than your Spanish allowance, it will be taxed. You can't claim that back from the UK.

Exactly right!!!

So you haven't paid tax twice so you have nothing to claim back under the double tax treaty!!

Just seen your 20:18 post Roberto

And I dont beleive that Hacienda will refund any tax paid in respect of UK Rental Income. UK rental income is delt with under the IRPF return Modelo 100 - tax return done on the padre software - there is no box to enter "tax paid in the uk"

I done it for 7 years and my assesor told me I had to claim back in the UK

Edited to say!

I paid double tax on my UK rental income for several years - With the help of a UK accountant and a highly regarded Spanish Assesor - I never got it back - thankfully It was not a huge amount of money! but certainly when I left it - the opinion was I had to claim back in the UK

There are more questions than answers
Pictures in my mind I will not show
There are more questions than answers
And the more I find out the less I know
Yeah the more I find out the less I know

I've asked the question time and time again
Why is there so little love among EOS members?
But what is life?
How do we live?
What should we take and how much should we give?

And it was Fred who signed my last return off.   I will definitely use Tony next time (I couldn’t remember his name).  

Also    If you declare everything and can support your information    The accountant is responsible for the computation    

Love the Johnny Nash reference, Duncan, but I think it would be more applicable on some other threads. More questions than answers, for sure, but there's no lack of love here - just some friendly banter. 

Sorry Brian, but I think you're wrong about who's responsible. Ultimately it's up to you, the declarant, to check the calculations. There's no way Hacienda will accept you telling them your gestor got it wrong. Anyway, it's a computer program, so as long as they enter the figures you provide, what could possibly go wrong?! This has been discussed here and on other forums forever, and is one of the major gripes about the whole "profession" in Spain - lack of accountability.

Team GB - of course Hacienda won't "refund" any tax paid in the UK - they can't refund money they haven't received. I can't tell you exactly where on modelo 100 (which "casilla"), but I do believe you can deduct any tax paid in the UK from the figures you declare on your IRPF. Again, from John's linked document:

"Where a resident of Spain derives income....which may be taxed in the United Kingdom, Spain shall allow: (i) as a deduction from the tax on the income of that resident, an amount equal to the income tax paid in the United Kingdom".

Since the IRPF is self-assessment, it's basically up to you to work out your taxable base for Hacienda. Hopefully someone else who has actually done it will see this and post here, because there must be a method. 

Yes your right about that Roberto, your responsible for your taxation payment and the information you provide.

The reason anyone would use a professional is because they know what they are doing and have the knowledge you may lack, so when they are qualified and recognised as qualified, they can provide the tax office with your tax liability in your name, sign it off themselves and deal with any questions of that return on your behalf.  If the accountant says they are satisfied you have decalred everything, the tax office will investigate those individuals on less occasions than the people who self-declare or use computer programmes.

If an investigation is made the accountant will 'hold your hand' through the process and continue giving advice.  They also usually save money on taxation matters for those who dont dodge.  If you dont have much to declare, then one years service of these people could be enough to last you for a long long time, and your confident in getting it right thereafter.

Using a professional?   Well I play golf with lots of guys who complain that they always get that shot wrong, or 'I have a good swing and a bad swing', and dont enjoy their golf (swear like troopers, bash clubs about etc).   I also play golf with guys who have had the odd lesson and have learned some things from a professional who has dedicated their life to learning.

I know that in the main they who enjoys the game better and who plays better are the ones who had lessons, such is life, but sometimes it does cost.

Well, whether or not they "know what they're doing and have the knowledge you may lack" is seriously open to debate, as is the assumption that the tax office is less likely to investigate an individual who had their returns submitted by a gestor rather than by themselves. (And whether you submit yourself or have a gestor do it, it's all done via a computer program anyway). I could personally give examples, and I know Johnzx can too, of having "educated" my gestor on subjects he really should have known more about than me. You may be lucky, but sadly, these so-called professionals (qualified or otherwise) cannot be relied on totally, and the onus is very much on the individual to keep themselves informed. That's why forums like this and blokes like Tony down the pub are so invaluable. One rule of thumb I often hear Tony telling newbies in the pub who have hired a lawyer for whatever reason is to remember that the lawyer will happily answer any questions you may have - but he will not tell you what questions you should be asking.

Having said all that, I should point out that I never actually said that one should not use a gestor to help with their tax returns. In fact, I've always had mine submit my returns (after I've checked them) on my behalf; for the €40 or €50 he charges annually, it's worth the cost to me to keep his door open in case I need him for anything else during the year. I think of it as a retainer. So I agree with your point about using them at least initially.

As for the golf analogy - well, I never heard of anyone getting into trouble with the law or the taxman due to their unprofessional swing, and nor do I think anyone does a "better" tax return or "enjoys" doing theirs any more because they took a few lessons, so it doesn't seem particularly apt here 

Is a gestor actually professionlly qualified like a lawyer, accountant or doctor?.

No....I wasnt suggesting anyone takes golf lessons from an accountant 

Duncan - it depends I suppose on what you consider to be "professionally qualified".

Have read here and see what you think: http://gestoresmalaga.com/english-version/

The problem is, as with any profession I suppose, that Spanish laws & practices are constantly changing, so even if your gestor is qualified, if he doesn't bother to keep up to date, you could be vulnerable. And the other problem is that employees at "official" sources (such as Hacienda themselves) are often hopelessly ill-informed, or simply have a bad attitude, and most Spanish government websites, if they even function correctly and have up to date security certificates, are hopelessly confusing and misleading. Deliberate? You decide!

FOUR!!! 

In the Uk certsin professionals have the term 'Chartered’, which is by royal charter and the standard and service has to be permanently acceptable.  This includes targeted audit of work and annual requirement of CPD to ensure the professional development is maintained.   

It doesn’t mean the professional has to be super human, just competent and up to date.   It looks like the Gestors are able to claim how good they are, but from comments it looks like they are not tested to any degree?    

The poster is asking about UK taxation matters and considering moving to Spain, perhaps a meeting with an accountant in the UK to discuss matters abroad may be a good idea then?   Most professional bodies act 'cross border' in terms of advice.

By the way, I don’t know if it was a very clever play on words (probably so with your own wit) or a Freudian slip of accountancy but, the first lesson is.

Fore.....not Four....😳

Gestors = Jesters perhaps!,,,,

This message was last edited by briando55 on 10/10/2017.

Totally agree with the Chartered comment - in my mind this indicates real academic achievement and invariably can only be obtained after several years of demanding study.  These days it's easy to become "professionally qualified" - sometimes by just paying a fee!

Johnand  Re your Original post,  Which was :-

 Hi I’m looking to move to Spain in the very near future, I will be renting out my Uk property, this will be my family’s only income. Does anyone know if I will have to pay any Spanish tax. 

Extract from   http://www.blevinsfranks.com/news/blevinsfranks/article/spain-uk-investments-taxation

UK rental income

If you rent out property in the UK, this income remains taxable in the UK. It is also taxable in Spain if you are resident here, and must be added to your other general income and taxed at the scale rates of tax. A 60% reduction is available in Spain against the net rental income, but only for long-term lettings. The UK tax paid on this income can be offset against the Spanish tax on the same income.   

Another age old topic showing this forum at its worst

same users tit for tat answers and bickering 

the original question by a new member (or is he?) who has not come back and you have to wonder why

I am sure the new topic on wealth tax will go the same way

How long will that new member stay

John do you actually understand what you have posted.

So it’s taxed in the UK and Spain. Great, so who gets what?

Net rental income. What does that actually mean (minus wear & tear on the carpet)

Long term lettings. What does that mean, a week, a month, a year, lifetime.

Taxed at the scale rates of tax. A 60% reduction is available. More double Dutch.

Tadd  John do you actually understand what you have posted.  

It was a a post from

 http://Extract from   http://www.blevinsfranks.com/news/blevinsfranks/article/spain-uk-investments-taxation    

Maybe you could ask them, as I would hope the OP will if he/she needs clarification.

 As some would say, they are the expert professionals who should be consulted,

Thanks for all the replies, I’m coming over next week and have a meeting arranged with an accountant hopefully he will clarify everything, it seems to be a minefield lol

Johnand, good to see you're still here and we haven't put you off. Good luck with the accountant, I hope you get some clear and helpful advice. Hopefully the "tit for tat & bickering" that's been going on has given you a good idea of what you need to be asking.

Duncan - I understood what John posted perfectly: it was a quote from one of the best known & well respected (although in my experience not always right) firm of  tax advisors in Spain catering to expats, and pretty much summed up what we've said so far. Obviously it's slightly simplified, because they want you to get in touch for more detailed (paid-for) advice, but one can figure out what net rental & long term mean by using a bit of good old common sense. "Taxed at the scale rates of tax. A 60% reduction is available. More double Dutch."  Apart from the fact that I thought it was 50% (quite possibly they're right and I'm wrong), I don't know what part of that isn't clear. Who get's what? Well, that was clear also from the quote: "The UK tax paid on this income can be offset against the Spanish tax on the same income."

Brian - apologies for my ignorance about golf - I thought the cry of four (or fore) was something to do with the number of runs you score depending on how far you hit the puck. Still don't see what it's got to do with tax though ;-)

Roberto.....

yep your right, taxation is a bit of a racquet whearas I play with golf bats.  Otherwise you nailed it.  

I said yesterday

UK rental Income needs to be declared and tax paid in the UK wherever you are resident!

According to Johnx's quote earlier from Blevins

If you rent out property in the UK, this income remains taxable in the UK. It is also taxable in Spain 

So that seems pretty much the same thing! No?

Duncan

So it’s taxed in the UK and Spain. Great, so who gets what?

Both jurisdictions get what is due under their own tax legistration if the taxpayer plays by the rules and completes the required returns! If the taxpayer finds that they have paid tax twice on the same income they have recourse to claim it back - I still maintain by personal experiance that with the current example the claim would be to HMRC