EU Referendum

Roberto 

Re your post in Heathcare thread

I agree when you said people did not know what they were voting for in the Referendum. However, I really do not believe that if a second referendum is held many more will know the facts either.

Both sideswill present their honest views,  often are diametrically opposed to others,

It will then come down as last time to a gut feeling

In 19745, when UK voted in The United Kingdom European Communities membership referendum ( also known as the Referendum on the European Community [Common Market} the Common Market referendum and EEC membership referendum) it was that UK should remain in the Common Market.   It most certainly was not whether UK should become part of a United States of Europe.

Since 1975 the EU has taken unto itself many powers which over-rule national governments.

I did not have a vote in the last referendum,   but had I, I would have voted to leave.  My principle reason  being I do not want the  ECJ  to be able to overrule laws passed by any country’s elected government, nor the EU to dictate laws and rules which must be applied by member countries.

Just two examples:

1. The ECJ forced UK to change their law so as  to permit non EU spouses of EU nationals to enter the UK without any paperwork other than a valid Passport and Plasticised Residencia Card                                
2. That Spain was forced to withdraw the requirement for EU citizen to have a Residencia Card.

On that last point,  I believe most of us would have preferred to keep it, it being a very convenient legal ID, but the EU said 'no'.so Spain had to change their law.

I think the UK public have been both informed and misinformed in measures since the referendum.   

If Spain had a similar referendum how would the vote go there, anyone willing to speculate?  

It may have some relevance going forward because if the UK. Comes through this period in any form of positive manner, there will undoubtedly be ripples.  And as Genesis once said, 'ripples never come back'.  

Spanish people have been consistent supporters of the European project. Spain has benefited enormously since becoming a member. I accept elsewhere in France and Italy for instance that support is considerably less among the population and equally divided, especially among the less well off.  Not dissimilar to Britain except its leaders are not so misguided as to call a referendum to prove it.

President Macron has publically accepted that in France that division exists. He also said that referendums exacerbate and polarise that division in society which is clearly visible now in the UK. Single issue referendums are a very negative method to govern in a parliamentary democracy.

In this modern globalised world nation states that depend on trade cannot survive alone without making close alliances with other nations. With those alliances comes regulation political relationships and rules. It can't work any other way or standards and the rule of law would totally collapse.

That applies equally to goods, services and people. The EU has devised a system imperfect as most political and social systems are which actually is very successful. They are never going to compromise those rules to just to suit one nation that seeks to go it alone.

Its pure illusion to believe Britain can prosper outside such systems and somehow go buccaneering around the world trading with WTO rules and ignoring collective regulations.  Yet I believe that is the likely outcome of Brexit and so do the financial markets.

Mr Trump has already clearly stated that the US will not take part in free trade and will put America first. It’s unlikely he will make any exceptions for the UK.

So I believe as the Brexit supporting generation dies out and the consequences of leaving become all too clear a new more European centric generation will one day return the UK to the EU. Trouble is I won’t be around to see it.

I have been working since I was 15 year's old...I left school in 1971 and have paid into the system since ...I am getting on for 63 and should be retiring at the age of 65 ...I have now been informed that the retirement age is now 67 and could rise  .WHY.

Windtalker Are you blaming the EU for extending retirement age in the UK. The reason is UK economics and the fact people are living longer.

Really Windy? You need to ask why? It's obvious isn't it? Our population is ageing, as in most developed countries, and since pensions are paid from the working population's contributions (not from your "pot", that doesn't exist because it was used to pay your parents' pensions), there are too few people paying in to cover the pensions of the growing retired population - so unless you willingly agree to drop off this mortal coil early, the only other solution is to start paying you later. Or pay people even more to give birth to the next generation of workers - except that most of them will not be working, they'll be on benefits, because they'll be raised in a world where everyone believes everyone else owes them something. Or - God forbid - immigration.

Micky, I agree, I think it's a no-brainer that most Spaniards would vote to stay in the EU. You only have to take a road trip through Spain and the UK, or travel inter-city by train in both countries; the difference in standards of the infrastructure seem to hint at which way the money is flowing. Whether that's a reason for the UK to get out though is another matter...

Brian, I agree, it will certainly be interesting to see how things develop over the coming years & decades - although most Leave voters won't be around to see the consequences of their votes. (Love the Genesis reference too , btw!)

John, I agree that a second referendum would be largely pointless since nobody would have any clearer idea of what they're really voting for, or the consequences, than the first time round. But I'm a little puzzled by your reasons & examples: surely the first example, whereby the EU made it easier for non-EU citizens to visit the UK with their EU spouses, benefited you? On the second point, I agree about the annoying withdrawal of ID cards for EU residents in Spain. But isn't this the same for any political/legal system: some laws we'll agree with, some we won't, and whether we're in the EU or not, depending on which democratically elected party is in government at the time, half the polulation will be happy and the other half won't (very roughly speaking of course) - so I'm not sure what difference any of this really makes anyway. I'm quite sure I could mention several EU laws that I find irksome - but I'm not that confident that our own governments will not come up with equally idiotic laws of their own, given the chance.

55 year old one legged roofers ... From Eastern Europe  that are flooding into the UK .. should bring their benefits with them .. this is why we in the UK have to work longer ..it is rubbish to suggest that people are living longer ...the population is getting bigger by the day with uncontrollable emigration from the EU... Think what you like the government only has one pot of money allocated to benefits/OAPs ....

I do understand where you're coming from John - but ultimately, how many of us really have much say in the laws that are passed by our elected government anyway? Yes, if we don't like something our govt. does, we can vote for the other lot at the next general election - but will we like what they do any more? And even if we do, the other half of the population won't. You can't keep all the people happy all the time.

As for the ECJ and individual countries obeying them, I wonder how many EU directives Spain has ignored over the years (at least for as long as they could get away with it) and how much has Spain been fined as a result? Perhaps the UK would have been better off just giving the EU the finger over any rules it didn't like - and then letting them sing for their fines. (Do we pay by direct debit?!) Maybe we just needed a strong leader to bully the EU into agreeing to back down on their attempts to create a Superstate. Maybe ultimately the UK would have been thrown out of the EU for disobedience, saving us all the bother of this silly referendum!

Anyway, far more important stuff to attend to this Sunday, such as watching some grossly overpaid idiots kick a ball around for 90 minutes....

The primacy of European Union law means that any norms of European law always take precedence over any norms of national law, including the constitutions of member states. Although national courts generally accept the principle in practice, most of them disagree with this extreme interpretation and reserve the right, in principle, to review the constitutionality of European law under national constitutional law. 

Depending on the constitutional tradition of member states, different solutions have been developed to adapt questions of incompatibility between national law and EU law to one another. Union law is accepted as having supremacy over the law of member states, but not all member states share the ECJ's analysis of why EU law takes precedence over national law when there is a conflict.

Wikipedia

This principal was established when the nation concerned entered into their particular treaty of accession and became a full member of the EU.

In order to do that their parliaments had to ratify that treaty by majority.  In effect agree to the legal supremacy of ECJ jurisdiction.

Britain has chosen by referendum to end membership of the EU. However since parliament is the final arbitrator of UK sovereignty and in reality the place where UK membership began it should be parliament alone that takes the final decision to terminate ECJ jurisdiction or otherwise..

The people of the UK voted to leave... This vote has given instructions to the political establishment that change must be made... personally I think you should not have had a vote if you no longer live in the UK especially if you have taken up residence in another part of the so call EU.

I didn't have a vote - neither did Johnzx. It's pretty clear that if we did, it wouldn't have made any difference anyway, but what's your point?

Wind talker whilst I see your point about me not living in U.K. 

I am still obliged to pay tax there.     I think that as such it is not unreasonable if I had a vote   After all I can only vote in local and MEP elections in spain at present so I am denied proper representation 

There is private members bill currently going through the UK parliament giving British passport holders universal suffrage for life. It has just received an unopposed second reading.

Most democratic nations give their citizens universal voting rights for life no matter where they choose to live. You don't become stateless just because you happen to live outside the country.

This subject has been discussed to death on an earlier post started by Micky Finn around 18 momths ago under the title Brexit. I believe there were hundreds of posts, all speculation from both sides. The administators closed the posts as all it was doing was going around in circles. For those that voted remain and are unhappy, get over it and support the country of your birth.....

Javi

I think this issue is different now. The Brexit thread was started well before the refereendum was held. Now the issue is what sort of .relationship does the UK want with the rest of Europe after Brexit. That is an issue worthy of debate.  

Total separation from markets in the EU  and trading at a disadvantage does not seem very sensible to me. 

No Miky it is no different. It justs gives you and a few others a platform to keep promoting the EU. Whatever you or anyone else posts on here will make no difference whatsoever. There are people more qualified than you or I who are doing the negotiations. I have noticed over the last 12 months that a lot of people don't offer anything to people asking questions on the site, but as soon as Brexit or anything to do with it is brought up, they are all over it like a rash....