Spain to apply to the EU for the abolition of the 90 / 180 rule for British citizens

Quite a few press articles relating to the lack of British citizens visiting Spain as tourist...apparently the official Spanish governments figures that have been released are saying that British citizens visiting Spain as tourist and prospective holiday home buyer's is down since  the introduction of the EU 90 / 180 rules that Spain has been forced to implement by the European Union due to Spain giving complete control of it's  borders to the EU..the official figures  show that tourist from the UK is down from approximately  17 million per year  to approximately 7.2 million per year...since the Brexit this is certainly noticeable in my location on the Costas..apparently Spain has the right to apply to Brussels and ask  for the rules to be changed due to the financial harm that  the 90 / 180  is putting on Spanish tourism and property buying from British citizens...but don't hold your breath as like everything else that Brussels control's it will take many years for the European  Union to make a decision..

Appantly if they give way to Spain they will have to do the same for one and all, could go against the grain for the controll freaks in Brussels should that happen.

Baz1946 you are exactly right...i have browsed the various Spanish forms  i frequent on the net and people are getting all fluffy tailed  about this news personally I think this is  a tactical  move by the Spanish government  to get the EU  to fork up the shortfall in tourist revenue from UK 🇬🇧 tourist....for a EU  ruling that Spain  has to abide by no matter what.If this is not the case then why are the Spanish government  not permitting a UK  driving licence to be used by a Brit that moves to Spain as a resident and  forcing these people to take a Spanish driving test..this ruling is a directive issued by the Spanish government not the EU...currently  a UK 🇬🇧  citizen  can only  stay  in  the EU  for a maximum of 90 days continues  In any 180 period yet a EU  citezen can come to the UK Visa free and stay for 180 days  continues in any 365 day period.whilst  a EU citezen / Spaniards that moves permanently to UK  🇬🇧  can just exchange the  driving licence they hold for a British one without taking  a test ...ask yourself why  the EU  and the Spanish  haven't as of yet reciprocated with  the UK. 

All this is just self harming to Spanish nationals by childish game playing politicians.

For those that want to follow updates on the campaign to change the 90/180 rule I suggest that you follow the Facebook pages covering this, search for 180 days in spain

one chap Andrew Hesselden has been leading the campaign and here is his response to letters campaigners have been receiving from the Foreign office.

Please Note and to clarify the situation, the EU have not implemented this rule on the UK for Spain, it is Spain alone that has taken this stance against the UK since it left the EU.

you will read that Spain already has 19 identical visa wavers in place with other countries in a similar 3rd world situation and could resolve this very quickly in Madrid, but are choosing not to.

have a read....

Second Dissection of FCDO Standard Fob-Off Response

Hello.... This one is for those of you with MPs who are forwarding letters onto the UK Foreign Office and who are receiving replies from James Cleverly (the new Wendy Morton).

I've been through his standard boilerplate response and attempted to take them to pieces.

I hope this will help those of you who are wondering how to respond:

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The Government appreciates the impact of the ending of free movement on British citizens who previously travelled to the Schengen Area for long stays, including those who own properties in EU Member States.

>>>> It appears that Mr Cleverly doesn't fully appreciate that someone who has a home in an EU country, and uses it for part of the year does not "travel to the Schengen Area for long stays".  They live there full-time, for part of the year.  It is their home,  as much as the place they live in the UK, and this should have been considered when protecting other British nationals under the withdrawal agreement.  To add insult to injury, a Spanish tourist coming to the UK can spend more time here than someone who has a part-year home in Spain who happens to have had too many trips to France or Italy in the past 90 days.

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During negotiations with the EU, the Government discussed mobility arrangements in a number of areas, including future arrangements for British citizens travelling to the Schengen Area. Regrettably, in these discussions the EU consistently maintained that British citizens would be treated as third country nationals under the Schengen Borders Code following the end of the transition period. This means that, as of 1 January 2021, British citizens are able to travel visa-free for short stays, such as for tourism, for up to 90 days in a rolling 180-day period. This is the standard length of stay that the EU offers to nationals of eligible third countries, in line with existing EU legislation.

>>>> We already know that most Schengen countries have bilateral treaties with a number of third-countries (some signed before Schengen came into effect and some after).  Here is a comprehensive list and you'll notice that Spain already has 19 bilateral agreements with third countries that give them 90 days over and above the allowance provided by the Schengen Visa Waiver.  Examples are  https://op.europa.eu/en/publication-detail/-/publication/c067e92d-5a8b-11e9-9151-01aa75ed71a1.  Examples include Japan, Singapore, USA, New Zealand, Canada and more.  I would specifically like you to ask Mr Cleverly why the UK has not made similar bilateral agreements with Spain or other EU/EFTA countries during the transition period, and when they expect to do so.  And if not, then why not.  This seems to be a vital element of making Brexit work for UK citizens and equalising the significant gap between the access the UK gives to EU27/EFTA4 visitors and the access those countries individually give British visitors, let alone bona-fide part-year residents since before Brexit.

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Your constituents refer to the UK’s visitor provisions for EU citizens. Under the points-based immigration system, the UK treats EU and non-EU citizens equally.

>>>>>> The specific problem here is that the EU does not treat EU and non-EU citizens equally.  Nor even UK and other third country citizens equally.  Those are the precise problems that need to be resolved.

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Similarly, the EU has legislated to grant British citizens the same visa-free
travel permissions they offer as standard to all other third countries, including to
nationals from the USA and Australia.

>>>>>> Many Schengen countries allow Australians to stay for 90 days irrespective of the time they have spent in other Schengen countries during the past 180 days.  A similar provision for British citizens would resolve some of the problems faced by people like me.

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The UK’s Trade and Cooperation Agreement with the EU confirms that both the UK and EU currently provide for visa-free travel for short-term visits for each other’s nationals in accordance with their respective laws.

>>>>>>>> The issue here is that the respective laws are not even remotely similar and while an EU27/EFTA4 country citizen can stay in the UK for 6 months per visit, a UK citizen can stay in each Schengen country for a total of 3.46 days twice a year (90 days divided by 26 countries).

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Closing remarks:

>>>>>>>>> To treat British people fairly after Brexit, each EU & EEA country and Switzerland should have individually reciprocated the UK's more generous 6 month per visit visa waiver, rather than assuming the 26-country Schengen Visa Waiver would suffice as some kind of replacement for the Freedom of Movement we used to enjoy.  The Withdrawal Agreement's 6-month cut off for protection matches up with the UK visa waiver but does not match up with 90 in 180 shared between 26 different countries.

>>>>>>>>>I really must ask ########## (insert name of MP) to challenge current government policy with regard to making agreements on Visa Waivers.  This many not have been necessary in the past, when the UK was a long-standing EU member, but after Brexit, we must change our outlook on the world if British citizens are not to become significantly disadvantaged following Brexit.

Hmmm. Firstly you say "the EU have not implemented this rule on the UK" but in the next bit you say the EU has told UK they must abide by the 90 days visit in 180 days.

It's got to be one thing or the other.

And I believe 3 regions in Spain have asked the central government to look into increasing the time. And Portugal approached the EU to extend the period but were denied. Therefore it seems that it is the EU imposing the 90 in 180 rule which many other countries apply as well.

Why is it in the EU's ( Commissioners') interests to impose this 90/180 day rule?

Is it being used as a bargaining ploy for ongoing trade negotiations between the EU and the UK?

Is it more likely to be reviewed now that the NI protocol has been amended, since it would appear that this too was being used as an interim bargaining ploy by the EU to delay progress re reaching mutually beneficial trading arrangements?

Its very confusing but it no doubt needs to be perceived from a far wider perspective perhaps ?

Or ( and this is very sensitive!) could it be that the UK Government might prefer to retain the status quo so that UK citizens who have homes abroad under this scenario, stay in the UK for longer periods so as to be more active in spending their monies back at home ( thus supporting the UK economy) ?

This is not a statement but a question!

If it were a bargaining ploy between the EU and UK, why would it apply to other countries?  

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Since the British are no longer EU citizens and, as a result, are classed as third-party nationals, the Schengen 90/180-day rule applies when they visit Spain.

OK....thanks.

But  the Schengen area includes all EU member states except Ireland and Cyprus; at present the EU members Bulgaria and Romania only apply some of the Schengen provisions.

So does this mean that in Ireland and Cyprus they too have to abide by the 90/180 day rule? And what happens with Bulgaria and Romania?

This presumably answers the question why the UK will not be able to alter this rule even if they wanted to?

Cyprus. You can go to Cyprus for 90 days in 180, the same as other countries. The time you stay there, though, does not count in the Schengen zone. So you can go there for up to 90 days but you can then visit a Schengen country for up to 90 days. The same as applied to Croatia until 1st Jan this year when it joined Schengen.

Ireland and UK have the Common Travel Area so you can visit for as many times as you like. You can work and live there without the need for a residence permit or visa. Just like the Irish have free travel to the UK. 

No idea about Bulgaria or Romania apart from the fact they have a 90 in 180 rule as well and that Bulgaria is expected to join Schengen in 2024.

Quite right mariedav. Cyprus is now in the process of joining the Schengen Area. The UK democratically voted to leave the EU and are now classed as third-party nationals, just like all other non Schengen countries,  it was their own choice. Unfortunately some UK nationals are disgruntled and believe it should be like resigning from your job but still have the right of using the company car and taking home at weekends the comfy executive chair. I think they are referred to as remoaners, but there is hope for them if Keir gets in.

Kavanagh..you are correct on what you are saying in your last post...as far as the 90 / 180 directive being changed by Spain this is nothing more than the Spanish government playing politics with the EU ...apparently if a EU directive is harming your economy the member states can apply for the directive to be changed..if the EU refuse they will need to compensate the EU member states from the losses that have occurred personally I think Spain is after compensation rather than changes to the 90 / 180 EU directive...if you read the various press articles it is plain to see that the Spanish government doesn't want British tourism especially on the Spanish Islands ..pre Brexit the gated community I have a Villa on in Los Balcones had 26 British owned properties post Brexit this number is now down to only 3 British owned properties...the near by bars and restaurants are complaining that they are struggling to stay open due to the lack of customers ...the people that are buying properties on my community are mostly Norwegians/ Spanish/ French...I don't have a problem with this...but these people are not using the local  bars and restaurants and seem to prefer sitting on a balcony all night with a bottle of wine as apposed to the British that tend to go out buying meals and attempting to drink the bar dry.

Windy, what you say does make sense. I agree the Spanish have lost patience with drunken Brits throwing up and urinating in the streets. Spain does prefer the better behaved northern Europeans, but the cost of living crisis is causing all tourists and residents to be more prudent with their finances, as usual restaurants & bars are the first to suffer when you can purchase food & drink much cheaper at the supermarkets. I also think that there is still the psychological affect of COVID and we are in the COVID financial payback period, of course this is hardly mentioned and the Russians are being blamed for everything.

Sorry but this is so confusing….

In order to try and gain further clarity and following all this logic does the following apply?

The current Spanish Govt, for whatever reason, appears content to retain the 90/180 day rule in order to limit UK citizens from owning property without residency status. 

Is this correct? 

According to current legislation the EU Commission will not alter the 90/180 day rule for any country outside the Schengen agreement per see, but are prepared to allow Spain to have individual bilateral agreements with other  third-countries if they so wish? Is this correct?

Spain already has 19 bilateral agreements with third countries that give them 90 days over and above the allowance provided by the Schengen Visa Waiver.  Examples are  https://op.europa.eu/en/publication-detail/-/publication/c067e92d-5a8b-11e9-9151-01aa75ed71a1.  Examples include Japan, Singapore, USA, New Zealand, Canada and more. 

But any UK govt ( no matter from which political persuasion) will have no ability to gain such a bilateral agreement with Spain so long as the current Spanish Govt are unwilling to negotiate a bilateral agreement, as they already have done with the likes of those third-countries identified above?

So if all of the above is correct, perhaps it’s important to recognise the specific reasons why the Spanish Government appear unwilling to negotiate a bilateral agreement with the UK as they have done with other third- countries?

At the end of the day is this all therefore at the behest of the Spanish Government ?

Or perhaps I have misunderstood?

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Only the Spanish government can answer your questions and even then what government anywhere ever openly tells the truth? Comments by EOS members are only personal opinions and speculation. Even media news reports are generally fabricated to sell advertising.

Yes there are bilateral agreements with third countries but they have never been members of the EU. The UK left the EU of it’s own choice and gave up all it’s membership rights, perhaps the EU considers that a betrayal.

You will have to form your own opinions.

All those countries mentioned must also abide by the 90 in 180 rule. If they wish to stay longer they need to apply for a visa at the Spanish embassy in their own country. The visas are for residence or work permits, same as UK citizens.

Can't see anywhere that it says those countries can travel longer than 90 days for tourism purposes only so it seems a bit of a red herring to state Spain has bilateral agreements. 

Thank you mariedav. So that’s just a list of visa waiver agreements.

Thanks.

Re Spain's bilateral agreements with third-countries, maybe Promedia can clarify, as I was quoting from his earlier posting?

It all helps at the end of the day to understand the complexities involved.

If you Google, for example, how long can i stay in Spain from Singapore (or any of those other countries) then it will tell you that you can stay 90 days in 180 without a visa. If you want to stay longer you need to apply for a visa for residence, work, study, golden visa, nomad visa and so on. Exactly the same as the ways that those from UK can do.

There are certain countries which get fast tracked. These are the ones with close and historic ties with Spain and mainly those from S America but even those need a visa to stay longer than the 90 in 180 days.

I think the OP on here was copying something from FB which, as we all know, is the font of all knowledge.