3 Further photo's Condado (jardines)

We are still waiting to be handed over (adopted by the town hall) see earlier thread. But seems immanent

We have now been told that we should start up an Association of neighbours and not a community of property owners.

As completion of hand over is due very shortly can somebody please tell me.

1) What is the difference between these 2 (association& property owners).

2) The advantage disadvantage of both.

3) When is the best time to start one or the other of these?

Thank you

Martin

The administrator who is working free at the moment (obviously hoping to secure contract) for the unselected committee have told them that if we start up a Community of property owners, the builder could wash there hands of the community and not complete the jobs left to do i.e. green areas walkways lighting etc and he could we walk away and we could be left with the bill to rectify outstanding jobs and the bill could run in to thousands

So he (administrator) has suggested we start up this Association of Neighbours though the town hall has said they will take on roads lighting green areas

Martin

Not entirely sure I undersand your situation. I think Maria will be the best person to help with this, because she's Spanish and qualified in legal matters, but probably she also is unclear.

Have you, and/or any of your "neighbours", actually completed on the property yet? (i.e. have you signed the escritura in your name?) If you are not yet officially the owner/s, I don't think you can form a legal community. But even if you are, and can, I don't see why having established the Community of Owners (as required by the Horizontal Law) that this would in any way absolve the builder / developer of any of their responsibilities under the law (to complete the property as per the plans / specifications etc.)

You can download a copy of the Horizontal law in English here: http://www.eyeonspain.com/spain-magazine/horizontal-laws.pdf

Hope this may help a bit.

Yes we have all signed escritura some people have been living in propertys some 6 years, told today we are going to be taken over by town hall at end of year and they are going to take on roads sewage lights pavements green areas.

Martin

6 years ? I assumed this was a recently completed property.

I'm afraid I cannot help or advise on this one. I don't understand what is meant by "we are going to be taken over by town hall". The only thing I can think of is that areas which have up until now been Communal areas, which consitute a part of the property you own, are going to be ceded to the Town Hall, thus becoming their responsibility to maintain. But this would presumably then entail ammending all of the existing escrituras?

How come after 6 years there is no Community of Owners? How has the community been administered and maintained? Unless you are 4 or less owners, I don't understand how this can be legal, let alone practical?

I'm struggling a bit on this - anyone else got any ideas to help nitram please?

I'm with you on this one Roberto, there is something strange about all this...................and NO administrator works for free!!

Nitram, have you been paying Community Fees??  If so, to whom??

And why has it taken SIX years before the properties have been handed over??

Perhaps the streets and lighting around you are being 'adopted' by the town hall ( similar to the way they do in UK ) ?

You could do with telling us where you are and how many properties are in your urbanisation if you want us to be more helpful, as well as answering the questions we have asked.

I've heard of adopting a donkey (www.elrefugiodelburrito.com - excuse the plug but they do a great job and it's free to visit!) but never adopting a street! But my better half tells me she's seen it in Liverpool. Maybe a Northern thing?

nitram has said that some owners have been in their properties 6 years - but also have their escrituras. So what's to "hand over"?

Confused.

English at >> http://www.thedonkeysanctuary.org.uk/site/6/Home.html

Ah, donkeys are so sweet, we have loads on our beach in the summer for donkey rides. The owners used to bring the new arrivals onto the beach but think the council stopped that. (Were so cute to watch).

Right here we go.

1) Yes some people have been in there propertys 6 years, we have been in 4 years this coming March

2)Out of 10 Manzanas there is 10 different written Escrituras no 2 are the same

3) We have not been paying any community charges as there is nobody to pay to

4) The Town Hall are going to look after and maintain ALL Roads. Lighting, Walkways, Green Areas, but not loightds in cul de sacs or communial t.v ariels

5)There are 500 propertys (detached & semi detached)

May i suggest you have a look at web page msn.com or put in search engine Castalla and Woddy message board our urb and community michael & june .

Thank you all for your assistance

Martin 

Right Nitram, I have just spent a happy 2 or 3 hours trawling through that web site as you suggested.

It looks as thogh the town hall, as you say, are going to be responsible for the street lights roads etc. and that is pretty normal. However, as owners, you will all be responsible for your communal areas...that too is pretty normal in a Community.

The Horizonal Law states catagorically what you MUST do as a Community....this is Spanish Law and not negotiable.

I think what has happened in your Community is what often happens when there are several fases and that is that  some persons, with the best intent, have elected themselves as reps for you all and possibly added the services of an administrator ( who you and they say ) is working for free.................? ( they must have an expectation of some remittance!!)

This group of self elected persons, however admirable, are not a legal entity and will not be so until elected by a properly constructed meeting of owners and therefore do not have any negotiating power or standing under Spanish Law.

It is often really difficult to find out exactly what the Communal areas in an urb are...............we have been trying to pin it down for 5 years now, via builder, town hall, origional plan and land registry. The definition appeares to be ......any areas which are not in your deeds which are enjoyed by the Community............ie pool, garden, interior roads, corridors, storage areas etc. And these will need maintaining, for which you will have to pay Community Fees ( and for Community insurance which is of paramount importance )

It is not true, in my experience, that if you form a Community of Owners the builder can 'just walk away' from anything that is wrong......................as owners you have the guarentees and also your administrator to work for you. But it is true to say that it is difficult to make a builder do anything without resorting to Law which can be long and drawn out.

If the builder is going to do F A then it doesn't matter what arrangement you have!!

You do not have to accept the hand over in any event.........or you can specify at your initial meeting ( which is recorded and lodged with the Spanish Authorities ) your concerns and objections.

Just out of interest, we have been here 5 years and did not recieve our Habitation Certs for the first year. If the town hall are not going to issue these until the illegal works have been removed, then you could do with a Community or owners to take legal action against the persons who are stopping you recieving the certs., or you could issue denuncias personally.............you can now do this in English, over the phone, at no cost.

It is obvious from your web site that you have a lot to sort out and doing it together as a Community of Owners would be better than trying on your own.

Good luck, PM me if I can help further and keep in touch.

Quote Karensun: "I have just spent a happy 2 or 3 hours trawling through that web site as you suggested."

Good for you Karen - I don't have the patience, never mind the time. Took me long enough just to work out where nitram was directing us to. Is it just me who is finding his messages very hard to interpret? A link would be much easier to follow, than a misspelled search term.

For anyone who does want to read more on this, look here:

http://groups.msn.com/CastallaCostaBlanca/general.msnw?action=get_message&mview=0&ID_Message=6697&LastModified=4675649314184152678

Also, for anyone with rudimentary Spanish who is wondering what apples have to with this thread, manzanas can also mean a block of houses. (I'm not ashamed to admit I had to look it up - never come across it before)

And for what it's worth, here's my thoughts on new(ish) urbanisations for anyone who's thinking of buying in Spain. Would you buy a property on a new urbanisation in the UK with no proper roads, drainage, street lighting etc. already established? (If the answer is YES, then never mind) It seems to me that a great many of the people on this and other similar forums who are experiencing similar problems, have bought on this type of development - built on previously undeveloped land (sometimes completely illegally). I've lived in Spain over 10 years, and have only ever once even seen one of these places! It's just my opinion, but for my money, I would always go for property in established urban areas; resale, or new build if it's on land that's previously already been developed. Apart from being far more convenient than living in the middle of nowhere and being dependent on a car, it seems a far safer bet to invest your money as well.

Yes Roberto, in principle, I agree with you.....................trouble is Nitram obviously did buy and is now stuck with it for whatever reason and is asking for a bit of help!!! ( though I suspect that, after reading the site, it's more of a 'people' problem he has to sort!!)

Good for you Karen - I don't have the patience, never mind the time. ( you wrote in your post ) IF it was not hissing down with rain, IF I was baking like I should be, IF I was housekeeping...................then I wouldn't have the time either!! ( hehe)

I'm not getting at nitram or anybody else in his position - though I did expect some response in that vein. On the contrary, I feel for him and his neighbours. There but for the grace......

My humble opinion was purely offered for those who may be considering buying in Spain and are drawn to places like Castalla for whatever reason - pushy developers / agents, the security of an ex-pat enclave, whatever.

Came across this lovely description of Castalla while trying to figure out where on Earth it is: "The urbanisation consists mainly of ex British people with some Spanish and a mix of other nationalities. You are surrounded by lovely scenic views and the pace of life is very slow and typically Spanish"  I love that; mainly Brits, but typically Spanish!  

I've heard many ex-pats say they want to get away from the concrete jungles on the coast and discover the "real Spain" inland. I never understand what they think makes inland any more "real" than the coast. Blackpool is hardly typical of UK towns, but it's still the "real" England just as much as Harrogate or Stratford. If it's about the number of immigrants, then neither Birmingham nor Bradford are any longer "real", but if it's about escaping the ex-pat colonies, then why go to somewhere like Castalla?

On the msn.groups message board for this urbanisation, there's a Who's Who list of British owners. There must be at least 250 names there. I'm not sure I've met that many Brits in 10 years in Spain. I remember years ago a rumour (joke) circulating in Mallorca that Germany had applied to the EU to take over ownership of the island, based on the fact that the majority of the population were German, and German had replaced Mallorquin as the number one spoken language. Surely the same could apply to places like Castalla and Britain? I know Eldorado was filmed somewhere near me (Calahonda, I think) but I always thought it was fictional - I didn't realise these places actually exist! Amazing.

Anyway, enough of my possibly unwelcome musings (just my opinion, like I said, no offence meant).

Just one thought and a question to nitram - I noticed while searching for info on Castalla that there is a communal pool. Who pays for the maintainence if you are not paying anyone Community fees? Just curious.

I hope you can find some answers and help with your "challenges"! Good luck.

By the way, it's raining on the Costa del Sol.

Hi Roberto, I didn't mean to imply you were in any way getting at anyone.......................I agree with what you said!!

Is Castalla somewhere around Alicante?.......................where ever it is, they sure got problems, a lot of which, I think, are between individuals, never mind the builder!!

I should think the builder is still maintaining the pool if the urb has not been handed over.................it's to be hoped he has the appropriate insurance, just in case!! I'm sure Nitram will re appear to confirm or refute this.

I'm just glad I don't live there!!

AND it's raining on the Costa Blanca too  !!!!!!

Not really Roberto, but if the pool is open and he has not handed the urb over then I suppose he'd have to.

There is really something strange about the whole set up.

Both Atlas & Parador took us to see what quite obviously was going to be a massive urb within walking distance of Castilla, about an hour's drive north of Torrevieja, I guess it was, just off the A7. That was around four years ago. Recently we drove up to see what it was like now & we spoke with residents who had ploughed all their life's savings into buying there & they were so concerned that there were no commercials just a Cambank & a bar. We didn't think the town had much going for it & we visited on market day, too !!! Is this urb the one you're discussing, Nitram, as I haven't had time to look at the website yet ?

http://www.espanabreaks.com/map.php/costa_blanca.htm

Diorectly above ELCHE almost inland from Benidorm on the map.

The situation seems rather strange - I take it there is property that is collectively owned by the owners. The development has arisen in bits and pieces and so the property deeds are a mix of all sorts.

A community of owners has one purpose and that is to maintain communal property. The Horizontal Property act originally was drawn up in 1960 clearly define how this should be carried out. Community fees are paid to maintain the community property.

The town hall has agreed to take on certain areas - you are 'giving' the town hall property and having adopted this property it will look after it. There still appear to be community expenses which do not fall to any individual owner. If you form a community, which I would have thought was inevitable there will be a clear framework to maintain property by; with the controlling body - the community - having a legal status. Everyone must contribute to the running of communal property with debts being legally enforcible.

It is rather ironic. I have property on one of the Polaris World golf resorts in Murcia, at La Torre, and we have fought really hard to get control over our community from the builder, and get Polaris out of our hair. That does not mean we are letting Polaris off if there are faults in community property but we simply want control over running our own affairs.

We formed an Association of owners in January 2008, as we had been denied an annual general meeting in the previous year. We were very organised and formed a committee, had membership fees, developed an Association website - http://www.polarisworld.uk.net , all in an attempt to gain control. We have had the help of an administrator for free but that was because the 'official' administrator was not willing to help us.

When we finally do gain control over the community, the Association may well simply become a social group. So we will have both.

I think your answer lies by addressing the question - what function and needs do we need dealing with?

If the answers are running community property, collecting fees to do this and general administration the answer is you should form a community of owners - if the answer is something else then a community has no role as legally the only reason for 'communities' to exist is to do this