HALL OF SHAME

The more I read on this site,the more I am shocked by the scale of scandels in the Spanish development market.Can I ask the editor of this website to organise a HALL OF SHAME so we can all add our names to one list,naming the developments/developer/estate agent/and showing our potential losses.
I think one list would quickly go past the 10 million euro mark and prehaps it would make goverments look at the spanish legal system.

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Djo, if you had read the FORUM RULES you'd appreciate that will not be done..(though we all do tend to discuss the megga probs some are in because of no fault of their own).

Rules do state : DON'T MENTION COMPANY OR EMPLOYEE NAMES - Please do not use the forums to complain about companies or individuals.  We are not in a position to be held liable for defamatory content on our site over which we know nothing about.  Therefore, please do not mention any company names or their staff if you have any compaints.  This is not the place to vent your anger.

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Strange,most of the forum pages on estate agents and developers mention company names and individuals.and most are not very complimentary!

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I know, I said it happens but a Hall Of Shame ??? Can't see it happening. 

Personally, I think it's a good idea.

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If consumer rights were protected as well as they are in the UK then this wouldn't be necessary. It's upto the Spanish government to enforce or pass legislation that would prevent these problems.

In the meantime I'm in support of 'The Hall of Shame' idea - I'm receiving very poor service from my Spanish solicitor and problems with my off-plan developer, I stand to loose my life savings if things continue to go pear shaped. 

Very sadly I'm not alone -  scams, corruption and incompetence just seems so widespread, so warning or sharing with others seems a sensible idea - most cheated buyers stand to loose tens of thousands of pounds - these are very large amounts of money to loose unecessarily, especially when we seem to have so little protection nor warning. This is a very big problem at the moment. I appreciate that a 'Hall of Shame' could be used maliciously, but where there is well documented,corroborated  evidence of malpractice why not after suitable vetting, name and shame or warn at the very least. 

The internet is free of censorship, so why not have a section on this site or start a new site where others can warned - at the moment we self censor our posting and I see that the EOS team does edit some erroneous postings. Submission to this new section could be indirect and would only appear once the EOS team have checked its accuracy. It would be such a valuable extension of the EOS forums - very needed at the moment. Perhaps also a section where good service/practice can be rewarded by positive comment, cos this does happen as well. 

I think our rights as consumers MUST supercede rights of cheats, scammers, thieves and liars!

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Good post, Rymski. I didn't say it shouldn't happen, just that I doubted it would happen. I support you both.

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Hi Rymski, Off plan investments have often been a double edged sword. Of course consumer protection exists in Spain, but can do little against English run companies with English salespeople (most without any knowledge of Spain and its laws) selling to an English market in English, promising huge returns on off plan investments. Spanish clients tend to be better informed, and protected. The Spanish consumer groups would be  right in stating that there are many cases where the consumer is as much at fault as the sales person, by simply throwing all common sense overboard and reserving one or multiple off plan properties without doing a proper research on the potentials.

Clients have enough material at hand to be sufficiently informed even before coming over to Spain. Many clients I have met only knew some heresay, but never even heard of such usefull books like You and the law in Spain etc. If people are planning to spend much of their life savings in a foreign property, I  would have thought it worth going over much better organised rather than buy from the first company they are on an 'inspection flight' with.


This message was last edited by Robert H on 8/3/2008.

This message was last edited by Robert H on 8/3/2008.

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With regard to Robert's H pathetic and stupid reply, Buyers rely solely on Estate Agents advise and information in a fiduciary duty. Estate Agents are duty bound to protect the interests of the buyers and carry out all the necessary checks with due dilligence. I relied solely on my Estate Agent and Spanish Lawyer as a first timer to protect my interests only to discover that things could only get seriously worse. I don't know the Spanish law but relied on so called professional people to do this on my behalf, Are you trying to tell me that I should have carried out due dilligence? 

David

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Yep.

Just Dan


This message was last edited by Just Dan on 8/3/2008.

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Dear David,

It seems that your accusations of my post being pathetic and stupid, really applies to your own sorry state of affairs. Estate agents here are duty bound to themselves first and foremost, with some notable and long established exceptions. Thousands of ill informed clients of estate agents based on time share structures have made wrong and ill advised investments, and are now facing multiple mortgages on properties which cannot even be rented out. This is not Spains fault, nor their laws. Its the fault of the 'Trustworthy' English speaking Rep and the client who forgot the age old adage: 'If somenting sounds too good to be true, it usually is'. I have seen English people in English bars on the coast buying a property from a fellow countryman on the base of some photo's and wondered, would they do this at home? Of course not. So why here? You cannot go around blaming others for your lack of common sense. Was your Spanish lawyer recommended to you by the estate agent?

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Robert H

Yes, I had no other choice but to  choose the lawyer recommended by Medsea that is, a spanish Estate Agent with some english connections. Any comments here? This would turn out to be a big mistake over the course of time. I agree there were patheic and incompetent mistakes, but please bear in mind I am the innocent victim here!!

Dave

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Sorry . Think you may be a victim of your own making.
No one made or forced you to sign and we all have to take some share of blame no matter how much it hurts our ego
Sellers agents protect the sellers interests and their own .
Just Dan


This message was last edited by Just Dan on 8/3/2008.

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DJO: 
      Unless you have the time and resources to double check every posting you're on to a hiding for nothing. And even then, a larger player can easily break you because they have bigger bank. People would add companies to the sh*t list on the flimsiest of slights, when in fact the larger potion of the problem/blame is of their own making. But don't let  that put you off. Try it yourself: $7 for the url + $10 for the server and you're on your way.....see you in court!. 
Robert H: 
      Fully concur.
Dh123:
      " I had no other choice but to  choose the lawyer recommended". Though it's pretty bad form to blame the victim, and there have been some terrible cases resulting from unseen corruption, you might want to rewrite your last sentence, striking out the words "innocent","mistakes" and "victim", but putting more emphasis on "pathetic" and "incompetent".

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To headless and the other scathers, I presume you all did the due diligence and research to ensure that you did not get stung by these charlatens?
What is the point in telling people how naive they were to get suckered? Do you take some perverse pleasure from this?
This is a corrupt market that had managed to tick away undetected for a good period of time. That does not excuse the perpertrators and criminals from taking advantage of trusting and innocent (yes and maybe naive) people. 
Seems to me some of you people don't feel as though the day has really started until you've kicked the dog and slapped the wife.
Are you trying to say that these criminals are within their rights because we are all stupid and trusting?

Oh.... and please Robert H, don't compare our situations with buying from an English guy in a bar based on a photo. Your comment is ludicrous to all but the 0.0005% that would ever be dumb enough to do that. For them I haved no sympathy, but don't compare that to wrong doings of agents and builders who have been milking us.

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I really don't understand why people that buy in Spain are are being told that they are silly and misinformed regarding using a solicitor recommended by the agent. 
In UK it is normal practice as vendors and purchasers alike are recommended often by the agent if they don't have a solicitor of their own which obviously is a different ball game in Spain as we have heard from the many posts of tragic stories. So how are people to know without reading forums and such like that it is not the same in Spain?????  Without a recommendation how would one know they were choosing the RIGHT solicitor from elsewhere? Perhaps a crystal ball?

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Most of the so called lawyers recommended especially by the larger foreign run agencies give a commission back to the agents. So do the furniture stores, mortgage lenders etc. Of course a foreigner should use a lawyer when investing abroad. Spanish buyers do it differently, but can read title deeds, IBI receipts and Nota Simples themselves. If you come back from an area where you are interested in as a client, do a search on lawyers in the area and pick one yourself. One who is registered with the provincial Colegio, and speaks your language. Then you have the freedom of choosing the agent which offers the right portfolio. Read up on the laws regarding property purchases, and all the extra costs and regitration red tape is clear before going ahead. Money could not be better spent on a research by your lawyer before buying an off plan, into its licenses, bank guarantees, conditions etc. Any agent who comes up with the typical fast and pressurised closing techniques should make you run to the door straight away. You should ask yourself why is this guy so eager to sell me only these off plan properties? Why is he slagging the type of property I want? Its easy, simply because he stands to gain a lot more commission out of the sale, whether it is in my interest or not. Most sales people work for commission only, Did he have a slack couple of months? Is his job on the line? Is he really interested in showing you what you want, especially if he has to share the sale with another agent who might have that property? No, of course not. So, off you go, buying that off plan investment, hoping to sell it before completion, as the returns are so huge. Why not buy two or three? After all, these prime units will sell easily before completion, and voila, you can afford a much better property! Oops, the completion date is around the corner, and now you own three mortgages, which have gone up from 2,8% to 5,5% in the last couple of years. The Pound has dropped, and etc etc. Thousands of clients who initially came here to by a little holiday home now face bankruptcy because of this scenario, which is so familiar. I have seen it happen time and time again.

There are some extreme cases where neither estate agents, clients, lawyers or anyone could do something to avoid a mistake, and those cases involve mass corruption in the town hall and developers own world. The Malaya case is one such example.

I used the property in a bar from a photo scenario, which happened often enough in the seventies and early eighties, as an example of how trusting people become when they are with salespeople of the same nationality. Things have improved since then, but salespeople will often google your postal code when you come on an inspection flight, and learn about your area, your local bar, whatever they can mention to make you feel they have a common bond with you.


This message was last edited by Robert H on 8/3/2008.

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Thanks Robert

I appreciate your response.....Something constructive for those still looking to purchase. 
For the rest of us, leave us to sulk in peace, without rubbing our noses in it.

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By now, best option to look for an ensglish speaking lawyer is: 

- To ask in the UK embassy in Spain: they have lists of recommended lawyers
- To look for personal refernces ( even a search on the Internet with an additional couple of clients´references would be quite  a good way).

Best,

Maria

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Fultond,
    No, I take no pleasure (perverse or otherwise) from the problems of others. As I said, there have been some horrible cases where the owners were suckered due to corruption....nothing to say there. My more scathing reply was aimed at Dh123 who bought up the words "pathetic" and "stupid". I'm sure that Richard H needs no one coming to his defence, but I felt Dh123's initial reply to Richards' practical and imformative post, alittle rude.
   On another point, boards like this can help create an unfair and unreasonable picture of buying in Spain because those with problems tend to be more shrill. The vast majority of sales go through smoothly, with both happy buyers and sellers. 
   Oh, and I don't have a dog...but a good idea regarding the wife!

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Fair points Headless.
The reason for my original posting here is to try and highlight where the problems are. The problems are not with the people attempting to purchase the properties, they are with the unscrupulous thieves who are stealing the money. 
That is why I was trying to take some of the emotion out of these postings. You should expect a curt reaction if you post messages that appear to be patronising.
As Candyfloss pointed out, in the UK you would use a solicitor recommended by your Estate Agent, and expect full legal protection from the regulations empowered by the FSA. This seems to be amiss in Spain.
Dave

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