HALL OF SHAME

I haven't posted for a while, just been reading from the sidelines..........
I just read this thread and was saddened how it deteriorated from a valid suggestion of a "Hall of Shame", into a slanging match between EOS members.
The purpose of EOS is for members to share experiences, offer advice and gain knowledge, amongst other things.........
If a member has been ripped off or cheated, we should be sympathising with them, not telling them how stupid they may have been in their actions.
It's all very well for members who's purchases went smoothly to sit and be smug, but please, don't chase members away by demeaning their actions.
I am sure that had they had the "knowledge" in the first place, they wouldn't find themselves in their situations.
EOS is here to provide that "knowledge".
What is a shame is that prospective buyers don't join EOS before they purchase.
They come to the forum because they have encountered a problem....after the event.........they come looking for a solution or advice.
So let's provide that eh?
Rant over......back to the sidelines........
Kind regards (as ever),

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Well said FibbyUK

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Thanks fibbyUK from me too!! Some of us have never even anticipated getting ripped off being so trusting to the Spanish system .

Dave

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No probs...........
However, let's make it clear that is is not just Spain where people get duped, conned or ripped off.
I love Spain and the last thing I would want to do is give this lovely country and/or it's residents a bad name.
2 families I know of have had very bad experiences in Bulgaria.
It can happen everywhere in the world...............not just Spain..............
Kind regards,

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I have never intended to be patronising, as I have had my fair share of couples in tears over lost life savings, and in an age group where they face actually trying to join the labor market again for years to make end meet. Often, these situations are horrendous, and unfortunately, often irreversable. So my posts are not so much hind sight writs, but trying to inform potential clients of the possible scenarios, as I have plenty of first hand experience with those who's lives have been severely affected. I would always stress the point that Spain is not the UK, and to forget totally the system over there when landing on Spanish soil. Maria is right as well, there are lawyers who do their job properly. There are also estate agents who do a good job. But there are plenty who do not, and thousands of buyers who have been sold the wrong product, and ended overstretching themselves financially. However, the consumer society only goes as far as protecting you from buying a faulty product, not a too expensive one. Most people would find it hard to prove that the properties they bought where not the right investments, as as products themselves they are sound. This is where ones own judgement plays a large role.

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FibbyUk

Would that be in Sunny Beach in bulgaria, Ironically enough I had a good experience in Sunny Beach.

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What's a bargain or good deal? ask the "experts"

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Some of the replies seem to indicate that we asked for trouble by using english  estate agents.Maybe we did but the Builders/Developers/Lawyers/Banks/Town halls and the inadequet legal system are all Spanish.
Unfortunately I expected an EEC country to have laws to protect the consumer,that was Naive!

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djo
You have not been naive so stop beating yourself up. You did what all of us did, put your trust in people as you would of in UK, I did and I have been an agent for 20 years so expected the same advice as i would give. We chose an independent agent that we felt comfortable after going on an inspection trip with one of the major companies (had no problem with them, they just didn't have anything we fancied) and everything went through smoothly luckily enough but guess after reading so many stories since then maybe we were lucky? Now 2 years after the tragic stories are coming to light unfortunately, so when those stories weren't known about how could anyone envisage what would happen? I wish you luck and hope you get a positive outcome.

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WHERE IS THE HALL OF SHAME

djo  No just trusting.and thats a  very big difference and excuse those that choose in insult.

U.K SIDE


U K High Street E.As and U.K exhibitions are the start  and the first part on the net thats cast

1 All these people around you are interested in making the decision to purchase and you would be comforted with that fact.
2 Now Well I would really love to have a property abroad but how can I afford I it. LET ME GUESS what was said.?
A Do you have equity in your property in the U.K and how stupid is that when you can release that equity amount for the deposit for an off plan with no problem.
B Prices are going up by 20%+ per year and think about it you are getting capital appreciation on the 100% of the value of the property even though you have only to fund 30%.
C No brainer really as with the properties going up soooo fast you can easily sell before completion and make money. WHY NOT GO FOR 2 or 3 as the profits on 2 can pay all or most of your property left.with . Keep it for yourself or rent it out as the demand out ways supply.
3 Now the U.K agents job is almost done, to sell the dream and find out as much as they can about you .your interests/sport social.family including names and get you on that plane.LIE if you have to (JOB DONE)
4 Now this total profile is sent to an agent in Spain and when you get off the plane your best friend will meet you and guess what he/she will know everything about you so you will be amazed that their interests are the same as yours.( Instant trust)
THESE ARE U.K Companies with reputable names, THESE ARE U.K  ESTATE AGENTS /people that are there to protect you against the rouges in the country that is of interest.to you.

SPAIN SIDE ( or country thats of interest)
5 Now you have been sold the dream,they will know what where and what type of property that fits the dream as they will have been primed before hand.
You will probably be shown some rubbish first with your perfect property being held till last as its been picked for you by your profile.
6 A few glasses of Vino with your new found friend and remember they have only charged £99 for the veiwing trip with nothing to loose as prices are going up/your finance is in place and all you need is a good recommended solicitor as you have heard about corruption and suprise suprise your  best friend agent can recommend that for you.
7 You get to the solicitors and suprise suprise they would have been primed at what to say so as not to mess the sale up.
8 Bingo you sign up and commisions of say 10% are split 3 ways and its back to the airport for the next trusting souls that trusted their own compatriates.

NOW PEOPLE KEEP ON ABOUT THE CORRUPTION IN SPAIN
PEOPLE KEEP SAYING THAT THE SPANISH DEVELOPER IS CORRUPT
PEOPLE SAY THAT THE LEGAL SYSTEM AND SOLICITORS SHOULD PROTECT YOU AND IT WILL IN MANY CASES

HOWEVER THAT U,K COMPANY/U.K AGENT and YOUR BEST AGENT FRIEND WHO IS BY THIS TIME OFF HIS TROLLEY AND BRAGGING TO HIS FELLOW AGENTS IN THE BAR REGARDING THE PERFECT SET UP.at your expence or ruined life.
HE /SHE WILL BRAG HOW THEY GOT THE SALES HAVING AVOIDED THE RULES AND THE ADVICE THEY SHOULD HAVE GIVEN.
Top trick ? Sell the best apartment on the site up to 5 times and more.
You will get a call when you get home that they have found an even better one for you and you agree to switch. WHAT YOU SWITCH TO IS A DOG ( it goes on)

NOW IF WE ARE GOING TO START A HALL OF SHAME IT SHOULD START IN THE U>K
Remember the developers in Spain can only supply the market thats created for them. WE NEED TO SORT OUR END OUT BEFORE HAVING A DIG AT SOMEONE ELSES COUNTRY

Dont beat youself up as there are many thousands who have been caught as they are very good at what they do and some would sell to there own mother in pursuit of greed.
Remember however that the majority of people that puchase property abroad are very happy and its sad we only here the bad news however fully understand this in no way is of comfort ,hopefully a sucessful outcome will be yours in the end.

Just Dan




This message was last edited by Just Dan on 8/4/2008.

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http://www.ripoffreport.com/reports/0/357/RipOff0357808.htm
http://www.ripoffreport.com/reports/0/351/RipOff0351761.htm
http://www.ripoffreport.com/reports/0/330/RipOff0330795.htm

Etc etc

Some insight of how it is done. There are many links explaining to the world how properties are sold by some. Have a browse by all means!


This message was last edited by Robert H on 8/4/2008.

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Robert you mentioned something ealrier saying estate agents / developers give a kick back to solicitors, in Sapin.

I would remind you that :-

1) If clients used an abagado you can pursue them through spanish courts, rather than the tom, dick and harry conveyancers that abound in Spain.

2) Do you really think when you buy a home from wimpy, persimmon, barratts etc in uk that when they introduce you to a solicitor that that solicitor is not under the thumb of the developer in the uk?

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I agree that there are complete rogues both in the UK and Spain, and many other countries, all operating in underhand and deceitful ways. There is also an element of bad timing and bad luck that could explain other problems. If I had been sold something that had been substantially overpriced, but had agreed on the price and gone to completion, then I would point the finger no further than to myself.
However I am a victim of the Palmera/Grupo Mirador fiasco. I still believe that the 2 bedroom penthouse I was supposed to buy at 150K € was reasonably priced, even in the current market (deposit paid in 2003). The fact that it may never be completed, or if it is, it will probably be through a new developer where I have no claim, is where I really have a problem. This is not just a bad trading market, or bad luck. They rode roughshod over all Spanish Laws and ethics, in securing our cash and then not protecting it. They lied to us from start to finish.

This does not mean I do not have sympathy for those who have completed at a price way above market price, because I think in the current market it could happen to anyone. I'm just pointing out that there are several different kinds of deceit and bad luck in the current market. I actually sympathise for all, even if it is just bad luck.

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Dear Alamred, indeed, you can make a case against any lawyer and anyone posing as a lawyer, if you have a case. And about the big UK builders, I would not have an idea if they can pay commissions to recommended solicitors, I would imagine it not being too different from here. Big money usually talks wherever you go. 

Dear fultond, a penthouse for that price sounds good, if it would be completed. Many big agents have made things worse by forcing smaller developers to accept commission rates up tp 40%, and sell their off plan as exclusives. This effectively means that a client unwittingly buys into a property which is already way ahead on capital gains against its neighboring developments or resales, and have to spend years of waiting for the surrounding market to catch up. The problem is that this all takes place under the Spanish radar, as far as the legal system is concerned, English run companies sell loads of Spanish properties to English clients. Since the lawyers involved are in the agents pocket, everything seems above board. The clients in the end are the victims. Victims of their own compatriots ill advising them. Compatriots who only half a year ago may have been panel beaters and bus drivers, and have not a clue about being a professional realtor here, don't speak the language, but have been given a very effective pitch to work with.

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     Back to "Hall of Shame". I feel that such an exercise would really just allow victims the opportunity to vent as opposed to acheiving anything of practical value. And a quick C and D letter from the lawyer (to your host, not you) and it's all over.
     On another point, how is it that so many people confuse Spain for the UK in terms of doing business. Surely the fact, that up untill very recently, any criminal of worth could happily set up shop here, along with that quaint and universal built-in Spainish business practice of black money, coupled with a total lack of respect for their own enviroment (ie build anywhere), a get rich quick by any means (playing catch-up with the rest of Europe), and all taking place in a manana culture, should tell everybody that not all is well in Espanya.
     What I do find  interesting is how the victims, many of whom were treated as prey, still continue to have some faith in the legal system here. The very same system that royally screwed them from the word go. Call me old fashioned (or positively medieval) but I believe things would change faster with some blood. Real blood.
     Years ago, whilst working in London, we had some problem clients when we were just starting out. Then I discovered that for a mere £100 I could have a truly frightening bloke from some East End pub go collect for me....and I never looked back. Since then, whether in Japan or Hungary, I've always found that having someone scarey at your side makes people that much more focused. To that end, and with times here getting hard for many, I await someone whose seen their lifes saving stolen right infront of their own eyes, go looking for revenge.....the type which ends with someones brains on the pavement.  And maybe that'll stop the music. 

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Headless

You Posted
 I've always found that having someone scarey at your side makes people that much more focused. To that end, and with times here getting hard for many, I await someone whose seen their lifes saving stolen right infront of their own eyes, go looking for revenge.....the type which ends with someones brains on the pavement.  And maybe that'll stop the music.

I assume you feel this same princible gives you the right to be rude

Headless is indeed a good name as theres no brain,suggest its changed to Brainless as no one appears at home.
. 

Just Dan

This message was last edited by Just Dan on 8/5/2008.

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Headless is obviously a psycho who seems to know the  spanish laws inside out, I may get this psycho to represent me in a legal capacity who will defintely get me ripped off with his knowledge of spanish commercial laws.

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Its meeee!!! The psycho. Though not half as shrill as some.
   I read this and other Spainish forums filled with tales of lost life savings, people unable to sell because there was no proper licensing in place, of bent laywers, noteries and other sharp characters....and many followed up facing possibly years of mitigation along with the costs involved. And then, when you think you've won, they go to instant appeal. Not surprising that many give up with a shrug of the shoulders, and return to their own country to live with relatives. 
(Errr....at this point of writing some friends have arrived and some drink has been taken!).
   It is the very fact that most allow themselves to be treated in this way, that empowers those who do the bad do to continue with their wicked ways.
Dh123: In no post do I claim to have any knowledge of Spainish law. But the results of it's working/not working can be seen in the daily press.
Just Dan: I'm not quite sure of the "principle" you speak of which gives me the right to be rude. I just tell it as I see it. Straight. Undiluted. As do you. It's what a forum is for.
PS No-one at home would be "homeless" not "brainless".

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thank you , headless you have hit he hail on the head!! Fair points.

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