Off Plan???

Hi

 

Just been down to Spain and looked at a couple of developements in the Murcia area. The Rep was a decent guy (I know him from years back) and we put a deposit on a 3 bed Penthouse Apartment at Corvera Golf and Country club with completion 2.5 years away.

Not looking to make a fast buck but planning to complete and keep the property for 5 or 10 years, then sell at a profit.

However............. I am now finding that when you add up the IBA, Furniture pack, Air ConUnit, Mortgage setup fees, Solicitors fees etc, etc...............

Somebody is having a nice earner!! The agent says that over 5 or 10 years it is not a consideration, and because of our choice of resort (5 star gated, PGA golf academy, De Vere 5 star hotel on sight, Sports facilities, Championship golf course, beautifull location) we will still make a lot of money.

As I say I know him and he is a nice guy but can I trust him?? Will I make money over these periods?? Or should I buy in the UK or shove my money into a pension?

Any sensible and informed replies appreciated thanks, but no mindless ill informed panic attacks.

Best regards, Jetjockey.

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Hi

I am not as experienced as many on this forum having only bought late last year, but my observation is that  the one is having a nice little earner is your mate , johnny rep. My question to him would be ' You know what my plans are, you know what i can afford...why didn't you tell me what the true costs will be?'

But again I am no expert but I had factored in all these items before I bought. I am sure you will manage

Personally i would prefer my kid's inheritance to be in a place in Spain than in the hands of Gordon grabber Brown , as any UK pension fund would be.

 

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Heres my experience.  All figures are ish

Bought 5 years ago for 87000 euros at 1.60 to the pound.  £54375 (half down = £27187) ish

By the time I moved in almost 2 years later the final payment of 4300 euros was at 1.50 or £28666 total £55853

Notary, agents, bank fees and taxes - 5400 euros 

Running total £59543

Furniture pack and aircon came to 6800 euros or £4500.  So far, £64000.

Over the last 3 years, taxes, bank fees, community fees etc etc etc have come to around £3500 so £67500.

Flat is now on the market.  Obviously when I bought I was told it was a boom time.  Now I'm told the bottom has fallen out of the market.  Have the place on the market for 118,000 euros or £78660.  Profit about £11,000 so not bad at all.  I have had the pleasure of using the place on holidays for the last 3 years as a bolt hole so that has also been a bonus.  Downside is that the escritura only says 81,000 euros so I have to pay 18% CGT on difference or £4,400 cutting the profit to £6,600 after the 5 years.  I am told that if get my residency before I sell then the CGT is not payable if I put it all into another property, which is what I intend to do.  The other annoying thing is that my current place is up for sale at 135,000 euros, the difference being the markup added on by the agents (between 12 and 15% on the CB).  If I could sell it myself I would but I don't live there permanently so I can't show people around etc. 

If I had put the money in a building society 5 years ago, I'd have got the same back in interest but would have to pay tax on it which, depending on your circumstances, could be 40% of the interest.

Of course, you could always buy 1000 lottery tickets a week for 18 months and hope.................................

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Hi JetJockey,
The fact is that you are maybe planning 12.5 years away (if the development is built on time and you cannot bank on that). No one knows what the property market in Spain will be doing at that time. No one knows what will be happening in the UK at that time. The only sure thing about your transaction is that you have been given the standard estate agent spiel (maybe it will be true in your case) and he will be pocketing his commission without any risk at all. If you are aniticipating  using the penthouse for 5-10 years, then you also have to factor in that non-financial benefit. Your own home in a place you want to be has a great value. If you close the deal, just hope it gets built OK and then enjoy it.  But do you really want to wait that long? There is plenty of resale property - some of it off plan and nearing completion -  at very tempting prices right now.

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I agree - there are many distressed sellers out there who will snap your hand off and you will get the price even lower than what they paid for it!

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Hi JetJockey,

I am a salesman in a agency in the CDS, since 12 years ago I am on the industry..... from your post I seem to understand that your friend did not mention to you the buying costs?  They are around 10% of the price and excuse me, but there is not excuse for you not knowing this... It is displayed everywhere.... ANY website focused on Spanish properties explains very clearly this...... 7% VAT, Stamp Duty, Notary, Registration, etc... and around 1% for the cost of your Lawyer ( included in the 10%) who is suppossed to prevent you being scamed...  I can not think in a reason why your friend rep would not have advised you to be ready for those costs... nobody can escape from that...... if he did not mention it to you, he risked loosing the deal, because you could very well have fallen short and the deal could not go ahead...

The other costs that you mention there... I do not understand what is the rep´s fault on it as you mention furniture, Aircon and things that.... if you want them you have to pay for it..... as I did...

I do not think that you should "mix" IVA or VAT with furniture and Aircon.... you can go ahead without a lawyer,  I did dozens of conveyances for clients that wanted to save the lawyers fees on their request..... I am not a lawyer, but it is not rocket science....... I would personnaly not buy a property myself without a lawyer..... except if I am very sure of what I am doing.... certainly I would not go for a house in the UK alone.....  maybe in Spain as I know all the process, but not in a foreign country.  Would you try an foggy, night landing without the ILS working? With no comms....?

With regards to the "distressed sales".... I agree there are lots of properties on the market on that condition.... and believe me when I say that the agents are dying and investing all they have to sell them.... but, and I hope you take this as an opinion, most of those distressed sales are bloody unselable !!  A lot of people bought ridicoulous things... off plan...... and here we go.... nobody wants them even below original cost.

The good properties..... no "distressed sales" and you would be surprissed how many "offers" made on properties based on the "Buyers market" idea have been rejected.... the good properties are still selling and looked after... in view of the said "buyers market"..... lots of "vultures" ( in a figurative, not peyorative sense) or "investors" are flying around trying to sniff a desperate situation..... those clients I do not want, they are a waste of time...

Cheers Jock,

Juan

PS: What jets u fly? I am an "honorary Hawk pilot" " Trained at RAF Valley HSTF" ( And an "expert virtual combat attack pilot" with my F-16 Block 50 ) in my dreams and in my computer.......ji, ji... this is the part of the conversation I enjoy the most !

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QUOTE"The fact is that you are maybe planning 12.5 years away (if the development is built on time and you cannot bank on that). No one knows what the property market in Spain will be doing at that time. No one knows what will be happening in the UK at that time.END OF QUOTE

I would like to say that the Spanish property market in the medium to long term... HAS to be the best one.... Spain is still the ONLY country in Europe with the climate all year around, high level of "civilization", security, infraestructure, a very honest police force... and a couple hours from UK, Germany, etc....In spite of the cliches, the Spaniards work MUCH more than their equivalent north European folk....

I am under the impression that the "emerging markets" are starting to bounce back or will soon.... they are simply 30 years behind Spain in development..... can we speak again about "distressed sales" in a couple of years?

Let us be honest to ourselves..... Spain is STILL the "California of Europe"....... so in the long run, to invest in property here is safe- safe...  The Spaniards live and let live... or not?   and it is a gorgeous country....... I would have really loved to be able to buy some orange orchards in California at the begining of the20th century..... perhaps by now I would have sold to Dysney, or maybe Natalie Portman would notice me and she may fall in love with me.........

Cheers,

Juan.

This message was last edited by Juan on 2/9/2007.

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Excuse me, the previous two post were from Juan Pànzon, the undersigned... I do not know how I appeared as Juan only, that was the Nick I had in the "old" eye on Spain and I tought when back that I should re-enroll..
Cheers,

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Oh POR FAVOR Juanito, bla bla bla.....

quote: ".....high level of "civilization", security, infraestructure, a very honest police force.....In spite of the cliches, the Spaniards work MUCH more than their equivalent north European folk...."

Have you actually ever been in northern Europe? (I know you have, which makes this all the more laughable). Civilization? Mothers who let their kids piss in the street outside restaurants? Security? People getting gassed by burglars while sleeping in their homes, bogus cops ripping off unsuspecting motorists? Infrastructure? Roads that are impassable every time there's a little rain, telephone companies that can't supply reliable phone lines in the 21st century, power outages every time there's a bit of thunder in the air? Honest police? Yeah, right. And as to who works harder...try measuring productivity rather than hours spent out of the home. Just because a Spaniard may leave home at 9am and not get home 'till after 10pm, does not necessarily mean he's actually achieved much.

Having said all that, you're spot on about the climate, which in turn creates a pleasant, relaxed lifestyle, but let's be honest, none of us "Northerners" would be here if it wasn't for the climate, so let's not pretend that everything else is perfect.

I also agree totally with your comments about "emerging markets", and "distress sales" and the so called "buyers market". So let's be friends, and talk about planes!

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COR BLIMEY MATE HAVE YOU HAD A CRAP DAY? OR JUST HAD A FEW BEERS? NOTHING PERSONAL BUT JUST SOUND A BIT DOWN IN THE DUMPS OR IS IT COZ JANICE APPEARS TO HAVE DISAPPEARED? SORRY ITS PAT ON THE WIFES MACHINE

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Just doing my bit for the party. Any particular part of my diatribe you dare to disagree with?

You've cheered me up by appearing as your alter ego (your wife's machine, oh yeah! No doubt wearing her panties too?) Have you heard the rumour, BTW? You've eloped with Janice? Or has Janice thrown herself at you? If so, she should've read the sign....

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I've probably upset hard working Juan also, so here's a photo to make him smile. No hard feelings, mate. Notice the sign is in English, so let's assume the idiot who did this was also English, OK?

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Hi Juan.

I fly the Boeing 737 for BMI Baby. In fact I will be down at Malaga this afternoon (for 40 Minutes).

So.......... What are we all actually saying here. Is Corvera likely to be agood investment, or am I wasting my time. I am not commited to completing on this purchase........yet. seems a lovely place to me, but what do I know, it's €285,000!!!

Regards, Gerald.

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Roberto,

Yes, I´ve been in Northern Europe.... many times, actually a lot !  but have you been in other countries?  I mean more south? Perhaps if you do, you will have a different set of parameters to use....

Remmeber there are "barras bravas" as well as "hooligans" everywhere..........   With respect to the pissing in the streets.... I´ve seen worst....... comathose drunken people pissing and puking on the streets....... Many, many times I had to assist....... as I am "bilingual"......  I was only able to help because I can speak English and communicate in French ( I know you guys think they are NOT civilized ) also I can manage in German and Italian.... so do not come to tell me that the Spaniards "piss" in front of the restaurants...... why don´t you try it? and have a nice conversation with the "Locals"  Anyway.... babies do not piss, they just release "fetid" liquids.....

Productivity....... Englands GNP was 2,000 billion U$S last year, Spain was 1,000 billion.....  England has over 60 million people living and working, Spain 44 million...... I think the difference in productivity is around 25%..... don´t u think it is much better than before? Perhaps Spanish productivity is going up, and others go down?

Bogus Cops? Yes, there was a case around Sotograne a few years/ months past.... but they caught them at the minute... or not?

People gassed while sleeping.... GULP !!  I still would like to know what is this "sleeping gas", certainly it could not be tears gas, otherwise people would awake..... you are mentioning isolated cases mainly happened in Catalonia and Costa Blanca... and every time commited by East European, former militar or paramilitary types..... and they fall into the police hands almost everytime... also..... those things do not happen in the "civilized North"?

Telphone lines not able to provide reliable service...  matey..... you do not have to wait more than around 72 hs at the most..... and if you make your contract with telefonica.... they include the "rapid assistace" so they show up ASAP.....  Other companies such as Tiscali, Wannadoo,  (not spanish) are a night mare...... i know that because I always have to look after problems from my clients with their phones.... most of the time there are configuration problems.... not always with Telefonica to blame, altough I hate that company, but.... have u tried AT & T? in USA? ji, ji.... I have also lived in the USA....

By the way !!!!  Lovely sign !!!  Those are the spots I love the most !!!  You can have fantastic "spotter" pics done !!!  and then place them in "Airliners.net"..... actually one of the best Airplane photographers around is your folk Chris Lofting....... he goes to Argentina everytime there is an important exercise air force exercise ( maybe on the MI6 payroll). Want to see some GOOD pictures of the most beautiful planes, just "google "Chris Lofting and you will see......

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Hi JetJockey,

So you will be in Málaga this afternoon? A pitty it will be only for 40 minutes..... actually.... if the ground crews from AENA manage to unload passengers and cargo and have you plane ready for take off (RTO) in 40 minutes..... then my friend.. this contradicts Roberto´s words about the "low productivity" of the Spanish worker.... or, maybe you are going back as a passenger.

Anyway.... are you sure you fly BMI 737,s?  To my knowledge, the fleet of BMI includes..

3 x EMB 135

11 x EMB 145 ( this models both the produce of a "very incivilized country"  Brazil..). actually made in Sao José dos Campos, close to Sao Paulo.... ( this "crack" is for Roberto).

9 x Airbus A319-100  ( civilized product)

11 x Airbus A319-200.

11 x Airbus A320-200

5 x Airbus A321- 200

and !   5 x Airbus A330-200

So, Jockey..... what is the deal? Have they bought  "Fatso´s" withouth including them in the fleet that BMI proudly displays on their website?

http://www.flybmi.com/bmi/es-es/acercadebmi/laflota.aspx

I am sorry I can not help you with info on Corvera... I do not know where it is !!!

Juan Pánzon.

PS: Sorry if you just wanted to test me on the plane model..... but..... I am a good detective !!!  By the way !!!  The 19th Sqadron RAF is "visitig" Gibraltar right now !!!!  I will see if I can organize a "scramble" sortie and an  interception course plotted and "escort" you until landing in AGP !!!  ( I would dream)... It would have to be via GCI as the Hawk-100 do not have a Radar.....

This message was last edited by Juan Pánzon on 2/10/2007.

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Juan.

I agree with all your comments about Spain versus Northern Europe.

That is why I am coming back to live there after 9 years absence - there is NOTHING like the UK at the moment!!  I have seen both sides having lived on the CSD in the 80's and 90's and then going back to UK for family reasons.  It is not just the sun we come to Spain for.

 

Best regards

Linda

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BMIbaby has 19 x 737s in their fleet.  13 737-300 and 6 737-500.  I think you are confusing the European fleet with BMI international which used mainly airbus.

 

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Hi Linda and Juan.

Well just off to work after finishing at 03:30hrs this morning due snow. Just off to work on the Malaga (WW 2201- 2202). Do you get snow there??

Not enough reaearch Juan!! The 135/145's are owned by BMI Regional. Been there, done that, flown them. The Airbus are owned by BMI Mainline and BMI Transatlantic (A330's for transatlantic). BMI Baby are a seperate low cost entity and operate only 737's (15 at the moment). Come and see us at Malaga this afternoon.

Actually, the turnarounds are nearer 30 minutes in Spain.

Regarding Corvera. What I am really asking is whether or not I have made a good or bad investment buying property in Spain?? Can anybody here offer another valued opinion??

Linda. Your comments are interesting as I am totally ticked off with the UK. Could you give me some other advantages to living in Spain other than property investment (or the climate which is great). I really am looking for all information from all angles here. Feel free to email me even.

 

Regards, Jetjockey.

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Sorry Bobaol.....

 I was smelling something and I did not realize there were two BMI´s,  as u may see, I enclosed the link to the "fleet" as my reference... sorry it is in Spanish... because, you know... a A-321 looks very much like a 737 for the "untrained eye" and so I thought for a minute.... "something smells bad in Denmark"   because I loooove airplanes.....

Anyway, I will not ammend my post as I think is fair I take the full force of JetJockey´s wrath when he comes back from Málaga tonight and reads my previous post.

By the way... why you people keep on calling me "baby"... can´t u see my picture on the avatar? I am a horrible Alien !  Only been called baby by an ENORMOUS Alien Queen.... when just born.... 42 years ago...... if you think that Smiley is ugly just for being a crocodile, wait until you see me sticking out my inner mouth 

Cheers,

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Hi JetJockey,

Accept please the apologies from tis BIG mouth... you are right, I did not researched enough.... anyway, next time you want to enjoy some Argentine "asado" when in Málaga, just drop me a PM and I will try to apologize in person.... and you will not regret it.... Actually, this is an open invitation.

Which one you Fly, the 300 or the 500 ?  Nice babies..... actually, I would exchange "offices" with you any day my friend...... I should have done it when younger.....

Juan.

With regards to Corvera, I promise to search for you, ask colleagues and so. This time, my research will be more thorough.

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