Off Plan???

Hi Roberto closed down before I saw your reply - hmmmmmm disagree - in many respects not necessarily - certainly about the phones and the cops and the pissing in the street etc - nevertheless the same accusations can be levelled at the UK and no doubt many other parts of the world - re the work side of things have found a great many Spanish who are very industrious and not just when it comes to hours away from home having lunch - I agree a great many (especially Civil Servants) who seem to cram a days work into a year!

Being on the wifes machine helps me to keep in touch with my feminine side.

Care to meet up sometime - promise on a straight day!

Apologies to anyone who I offended earlier, sometimes it just feels good to rant!

Juan, I would not have said these things except that I know you are not Spanish, but I also apologise to any Spaniards reading for my ridiculous generalizations. Juan, you no doubt had your reasons for moving to Spain (possibly economic?) and I had mine - mainly an intense dislike of grey skies and rain, and the famous 9-5 treadmill and M25. Had I been looking for efficiency etc., I would more likely have tried Switzerland, but I made my bed and now I lie in it! Yes, I have been in many parts of the world, including "further south", and it's all relative as you say. I have also lived in USA (immediately prior to Spain) and would have happily stayed if they'd have had me, but when they kicked me out, I certainly did not want to return to UK, hence I wound up here.

Smiley, nice to know I've not turned you off completely by being an old nag. If you're ever up my way, let me know - I know of some reasonably straight joints for coffee!

Hello Jetjock,

Here is what Wikipedia says on Corvera, Murcia it is in Spanish, but the last thing is interesting and you may tell me if it may afect your plans.

"Corvera es una pedanía perteneciente al municipio de Murcia (España). Cuenta con una población de 2.051 habitantes (INE 2004) y una extensión de 44,86 km². Se encuentra a unos 20 km de Murcia y tiene una altura media de 270 metros sobre el nivel del mar. Se halla al abrigo de la ladera sur de la Sierra de Carrascoy. En dicha localidad se tiene proyectado construir el Aeropuerto de Murcia." ( In this village it is planned to build the Airport of Murcia)

Geographically, what I could see from google earth, the place seems to be ideally located on the sunny south side of a sierra, which will protect the south slope from the chilly North winds... it seems green enough so there must be water... and apparently a drive to the coast can be made inless than an hour, isn´t it?  Depending the point of view, the construction of the airport could be the deffinite take of for the village but also noisy summers as you very well know. I would supposse that the prevailing winds over there must be west-east.... so you can more and less calculate the approach routes for aircraft operating from the Airport and see if it will affect you. You know how noisy those GE´s can be on take off.....  Anyway, over here in Alhaurin de la Torre there are nice developments in spite of being a few miles from the runway of AGP next time you land in Malaga, if you can span some atention () look onto your right as there is the place I´ve mentioned.. opposite the terminal across the runways and taxi roads and the hangars.   I´ve sold properties there long ago and noise was not really an issue.

Cheers,

Juan.

Hi Juan, Roberto and Bobaol.

I fly both the 737 300 and 500 series. It is a dual type rating, just like the 300 series and 900 NG series (if you attend the differences course). However..............................................

The 500 series is no use from Cardiff in South Wales (where I live) because..........................

Cardiff is the most profitable Baby base in the UK for Spanish flights. It appears that a greater percentage of Welsh own property down there (or travel there) than English. So the Welsh flights are much fuller. This is a problem because.....................................

If the prevailing winds force us to take off towards the mountains (Runway 31) in the summer when it is hot,  the 500 series does not have sufficient lifting capability and we have to leave suitcases behind.................................  Basically, they are useless so I do not include them in my fleet estimates. Somedays down ther we have to use a sharp pencil for the performance calculations!!

Regarding the new Airport at Murcia, It is being used as a big selling point. The Runway orientation (East - West) will be such that the approach and climb out will be clear of Corvera, (Airport to the South). There is a new road going in between the Corvera resort and the new Airport that will give access in 10 minutes or so. The golfer will get off the aeroplane and be in a championship golf resort inside of 15 mins. A big plus for renting???

Roberto. Why were you thrown out of the USA? Please tell all. I love the Florida area and have looked many times at buying there!

Bobaol. Actually the European Mainline fleet also use mainly Airbus. It is only us cheapo Baby lads that use the old clapped out 25yr old 737's. We dream about flying the Airbus. I used to fly the Embraer 145 Whizz Jet. Now that was a fine aeroplane.

There are flying jobs all over at the moment and I keep getting phone calls. Unfortunately I want a Spanish base such as Murcia, Barcelona, Alicante, Malaga, Reus, Madrid, etc. I am currently looking at Ryanair, EasyJet and Netjets (for the rich and famous). Vuelling are interesting but they want you to fund your own Airbus rating (£18,000) so they can dream on!! Netjets offer a cracking deal and pay in Euros but you are away from home for 6 days at a time...............

Oh well.

Best regards, Jetjockey.

If

Hi Jetjockey

I'm one of the Welsh owners, also living in Cardiff, and very glad to know i'm in safe hands on my frequent trips - with or without suitcases!!!

I'm flying easyjet  Bristol to Murcia today (quick trip-back tomorrow night sadly). First time with them instead of baby, but better than flying into Alicante.  Been waiting for 3 years since the announcement of Corvera airport - hoping baby will be flying Cardiff to Corvera.  Did hope they would fly Cardiff to Murcia with the airport extensions, but no luck.

I'm not sure if i remember this correctly, but with all the new golf courses along the motorway from San Javier to Murcia (originally about 8 - now over 30 planned!), one is to be the size of a small city,  just outside of Murcia with a golf course.  Check that's not  Corvera.  It will change things dramatically.  Murcia municipality has approved many golf courses, aiming to make it the golfers place of choice.  Polaris world sites even have shuttle buses taking golfers to any of their (many!) courses.  Of course, Murcia has lower rainfall than the Sahara (last 2 years) so who knows where the water will come from.  The municipality now only approve building where there is water access on the site.  What that'll do to the water table in a few years will be interesting to watch.

I bought off-plan in a village at the beach in 2001- good buy - didn't lose money.  Stupidly used equity from that to buy off-plan on a golf course early 2004.  Building delayed for  years.  Still not completed.

So..........golf course in Murcia...........think seriously if an investment buy. 

There is an enormous over-supply, at the moment still selling - good sales pitch, but the big picture is not so good- many of the sites have yet to be finished and the market will be flooded with investors wanting to off-load.  I believe one estate agency has even set up purely to sell re-sales from the Polaris World sites.  On the plus side - there's huge choice.  Some already built.  They are a better buy in today's market than off-plan.

If it's for you - and you want that area, beach locations always rent and sell well.  take a look at the beaches of Pilar de la Horadada - (Mil Palmeras, La Torre de la Horadada and El Mojon, you can see i'm very biased!!).  Very good choice of new and exisitng build, natural park, sand dunes.  Spanish holiday area of choice.  Good value too for beachside properties.

I hope that's of some use.  Don't mean to be negative, I love the area, have great Spanish friends.  I would not have bought on a golf course if i'd known at the time how many courses Murcia council were planning in an attempt at driving up tourism in the area. 

 I'll give you a wave next time you're flying overhead!!

Best wishes

Jane

Hello all,

Good morning !  Beautiful Sunday morning in Cabopino !!!  What a day !!  I had a viewing tour commited for today at 12 hs ( yes, I work almost every Sunday) but it got cancelled and the Spanish client had the decency to call with an hour and a half prior to the meeting instead of just switch off the phone and pretend he "forgot" as it happens most of the time..... yes, we also suffer... this previous notice gave me the posibility to cancell all the appointments made with owners and development staff to show property to this client with sufficient notice for them to go back to bed if it was still warm.... otherwise.... I would earn their eternal animosity ....... for making them go and then call off when they had show flats ready and owners awaken early to prepare the jouse for the viewing... on Sunday..

Anyway, I was under the impression that the airport was not gonna be a problem with Jetjockey, now I see that it actually would be ideal for him to be close to work.

The constraining point seems to be the water supply, and as we know, in spite that it seems in the Corvera Area are some patches of green the general landscape looks like Arizona.... with regards to this.... I can only say that I´ve heard on  Spanish TV or read somewhere that a big push for desalinization plants is underway by the government, specially oriented to areas with a compromissed water supply... I realize that 30? new golf courses are coming... but this is not the main problem as they mainly "live" out of recicled water but the properties and the increase of population that it will mean are the issue.

The good news is Spain is a buoyant economy and so the desalinization plants can be built fast... also there is a "trasvase" ( bypass" ) from the Segura river who I think is gong to receive more water..... but please confirm this as I vaguelly remember this from the TV News.... water will be more expensive, but apparently there will be enough to cope with the development of this areas y hope every one in this orchestra plays his instruments well...

This "Hidrological year" is rainig well after several years of dramatic drop in the reserves, such as serious that last year they had to activate the desalinization plant built by Jesus Gil in the previous draught in order to keep with the demmand... that plant was "iddlying" for ten years almost as the day the "cutted the ribbon"..... it started raining and never stopped for a month and a half... before that... we spent a summer without water between 7AM and 7 PM...... that was summer 95... In Autumm as the plant was opened.... it rained for weeks ...

La Concepción reservoir in Istan, just outside Marbella is full and they are having to let water go..... apparently, this past week it rained a lot in the Guadalquivir basin and its affluents so it seems things are not so terrible anymore.... last year, the order came to stop watering gardens in summer because we were close to the edge.... Unfortunatelly, my nephew from Iznajar ( Cordoba) tells me that their enormous and beautiful reservoir is still so low in level that it waters are unusable due to the concentration of fertilizers fro the nearby farms... so the water bonanza is not being even, as ussual....

I have no idea how the rain has been in the area of Murcia this year so far... I think they are going to relly on disalinization plants... as the area of la Manga is heavily built and demands a lot of water... I think I´ve read they found some Undersea fresh water "springs" close to the shore and they are starting to tap on them.. Also, the news is that an Spanish Architecht, using Google Earth, apparently discovered a Roman fortress just underwater from the beach on the "mar menor", later I will try to post u a pic.

Until a few weeks ago, the rain on the "head" of the Guadalhorce , main Málaga supply was still scarce, but I think this week has been very good also up that area. So things sem to be coming back to normal and the 9 filtering lines of the Marbella disainization plant are now up to date, I think in summer there were only 7 working.... so if there are water shortages, the plant will pump full time as I think a connection witht the whole CDS is in place..... I think the plant can make 90 hectometers/year...

I will Google a bit and see if there are plans for this type of water supply for this area of Murcia..

Cheers,

Juan.

Desalinization plants in Murcia.

According to  http://servicios.laverdad.es/murcia_agua/cap15.htm  Murcia has currently two plants working since 2003, producing some 18 m3/year.(desaladora del canal de Alicante) , and 24 m3 the other (La desaladora de San Pedro del Pinatar I) also known as the "canal de Cartagena" in 2005.... They also inform that both plants have twin brothers coming on 2007  with 24hm3/year each and another also ( desaladora de Valdelentisco), en Mazarrón, with a capacity of 57hm3/year.... so it seems the water will be plenty.

They also talk about disalinization "windmills"..... and several projects more.... apparently have a lot of experience on this having the 1st plant opened in Canary Islands on 1964 and now almost 100% of the islands water is "disalted" water ( or whatever it is correctly said)

With the construction of Golf resorts and availability of water, I think that area can be a success... new airport....generally close to the beach.... etc, etc.... also, people from Murcia are known for their hospitality.

But if a good two beds goes for about 240,000 thousand, I still think CDS is a better option.

Cheers,

Juan.

Hi all

Thanks for the research and the information, very good work.

The extra water supply makes for good reading, I was getting extremely worried about that, particularly the statistics on rainfall in the Murcia region.

Thanks Jane. Very interesting figures re golf courses in the Murcia area. Unfortunately it doesn't sound so good for me.

I am beginning to think this purchase may not be such a good idea. Ultimately, in years to come, I am going to want to sell this place at a large profit. It appears as if ths is going to be almost impossible. Somebody mentioned earlier that they made £11,000 profit on their property over many years, unfortunately I was expecting to double my money over 5 to 10 yrs.  This is not unrealistic, see below:-

11 years ago I bought a small terraced house in Cardiff (by the University) for £35,000. I rented it to students and over three years it paid £24,000 in rent. I then sold the property (what a fool) for £77,750. A few years later it was worth £139,000.  I saw the same property for sale in the paper a few days ago for £199,500.    That is an increase in value of nearly 600%.

Whilst I did not expect to make this sort of money on this investment, I do expect it to do better than £11,000.  Quite frankly, if you consider the stress factor involved in buying abroad. Then look at the loss of interest on the money used to buy the property. Then factor in the interest paid on a mortgage and the deal begins to look quite sick.  As it is an "off plan" purchase we don't even get to use the property for holidays for  2.5 yrs!!

"Johnny Rep" is adament that this is a prestige resort and is far superior to others, both built and planned, anywhere in the area. I know he has researched this and he genuinely believes it to be the case. He is convinced that this will give the required strong increase in property value. I am now however, not convinced he is right. He did take us to see other developements such as Polaris World as an example of what  not to buy and I must confess that I thought that they were awful. The build density is far too high. Corvera's biggest selling point for me was the relatively low build densiity.

Anyway, I am going to have to go back to the drawing board and think again. I really want to buy in Spain and may well be based there before too much longer (Madrid, Barcelona, Malaga), but I am now not convinced that I have chosen the correct investment vehicle for my money.

Best regards, Gerald.

Hi Gerald,

In answer to your earlier question, I was joking when I said I was thrown out of the USA. It was just a simple case of visa expired and I had to break for the border.  If I had the coveted green card I would never have left. I was in Boston, but have also travelled throughout Florida (and most other States too) and agree that Florida is very appealing. Seems to me from your other posts that you are thinking of relocating, and I would have thought with your qualifications/skills, you could find a position Stateside? I have no idea where you would be best investing in property, but if I had the choice, Spain would not even be in the running.

Juan will no doubt disagree. We have been told off elsewhere by a new member for not sticking to the title topic of the thread, so I won't go on about it here, but your theory on productivity is flawed, Juan. "Productivity....... Englands GNP was 2,000 billion U$S last year, Spain was 1,000 billion.....  England has over 60 million people living and working, Spain 44 million...... I think the difference in productivity is around 25%....."  Simple statistics are very nice, but it's not that simple. The World Economic Forum 2006-2007 Global Competitiveness Report which covers 125 countries, "assesses the ability of countries to provide high levels of prosperity to their citizens...this in turn depends on how productively a country uses available resources."  They use 90 variable factors from sources such as the UN, of which GDP is just one. It includes factors such as Government inefficiency (red tape, bureaucracy and waste), infrastructure, education and training, efficiency and sophistication etc etc. In their resulting ranking, Switzerland tops the list, the US is 6th, UK 10th. Spain comes in at 28. I know where I'd rather be trying to get a phone line connected!

Well, as Forrest Gump would say, that's just about all I gotta say about that, so back to the topic, eh? Now, what was it again? Ah yes, Off Plan! I can recommend a great website for this subject: www.eyeonspain.com

Hi Gerald

Juan is correct - there are desalination plants for water.  The San Pedro plant is actually in my village  (El Mojon).  The borders of San Pedro and Pilar de la Horadada townships (and Valencia and Murcia provinces) run through the middle of this this village.  The desalination plant has trebled in size in the last year.  Yes Juan, there will be water, but this part of the coast is a very well known fishing area and the plant has built a  (5 km??) pipeline to pump salt back into the water.  Fishermen and ecologists are very worried about the impact in the sea of this concentration of salt.  Also the same type of desalination plant is now approved for Torrevieja - just 20 minutes up the coast.  Who knows what the imapct of these will be and when. 

I would personally not buy at a Polaris World site.  Excellent marketing, but take a look along the motorway and see all the concrete blocks of apartments with superb motorway views.  Must be heavenly.  BUT it is not so much the location to decide, but the benefits of buying an existing property versus off-plan, wherever you choose to be.

As Roberto says - this site has loads of views from people about off-plan.