Live News From Spain As It Happens

costabravarent said:
Saturday, February 1, 2014 @ 8:46 AM

There are lies, damn lies and statistics. What do these numbers tell us? Absolutely nothing. How do they know why these people left? Who, in their wisdom, decided it was because of the job shortage? These numbers, according to the article, are taken from the Padron. Well lets think about it for a moment. If you are upping sticks to roll back home the last thing you are going to bother about is taking your name off the Padron. It just isn't necessary. I think somewhere about 0% of people will do this.
The real reason your name comes off the Padron is because the town hall sends you a letter asking you to update your details. If you don't answer your name is deleted.
I don't know about the rest of Spain but my town hall had a campaign in 2012 and we all received a letter. My son, who is now in Canada, got a letter and his name is now off the Padron.
I think this article is typical of the gutter-press type of sensation that appears in EYE-ON-SPAIN
"Spain is a disaster and everybody is leaving the sinking ship"
Spain is a great place to live and you all need to STOP, STOP, STOP all this stupid scaremongering.

macsco said:
Saturday, February 1, 2014 @ 9:57 AM

It is true that statistics can be used to show almost what you want. But in this case it is obvious to most, that non Spanish are leaving. And in large numbers.
Your logic that these figures are wrong..... "taking your name off the Padron.......I think somewhere about 0% of people will do this".
leaves the obvious conclusion that MORE people have left than stated. As they are not here but ARE on the Padron.
Anyway, Yes you are right, Spain is a great place to live, but you need an income and 26% unemployment makes it tough. Not every one is retired.

jamesensor said:
Saturday, February 1, 2014 @ 10:18 AM

There is no doubt that Spain is enjoying an exodus. The Spanish economy, particularly in provinces like Andalucia and Galicia is in deep recession. The waiter/waitress jobs that Moroccans and Lithuanians can get, are sharply reduced. So they go home.

Britons and Germans are leaving because of the threat of wealth taxes. Of course, nobody knows the numbers.

spaindave said:
Saturday, February 1, 2014 @ 10:24 AM

To "Costabravarent" I ask a question. Why is it, if you hate "Eye on Spain" so much, do you read it? Why take advantage of a newsletter published with goodwill and then act in such a vitriolic and spiteful manner by referring to it as "Gutter Press" I personally am not lying in a gutter so obviously I cannot read "Gutter Press". Once again, WELL DONE to "Eye on Spain".

MarkMunns said:
Saturday, February 1, 2014 @ 10:53 AM

I think James has it right. I left but I have no idea if I'm still on the Padron. So the number who have left so far is probably higher than reported - maybe much higher.

I loved Spain but I didn't leave because I was unable to find work. I did so because the Spanish government in Spain is becoming increasingly oppressive. I know of at least 3 other people who have left for the same reason.

As far as I'm concerned, the governement has signalled that a compulsory bank bail-in is in their future plans. IMO, Cyprus was a trial run and the public's reaction to it was watched by many technically bankrupt nations in the EU.

Whether Spain comes after a proportion of everyone's assets at some point in the future is unknown. However, systematically enticing (non-EU) people to buy property and then introducing a law requiring the disclosure of everything they own, anywhere on the planet, with extreme penalties being levied if the information is withheld, means that they have every law in place to 'Cyprus' those who are left.

Like the UK, such ridiculous policies result in those who can leave do so - and asap. By definition that's people with skills, money or both.

The resultant shortfall of tax into the nation's coffers has to be made up somehow. The UK did it by opening the borders to all and sundry but it takes many more low-paid individuals to make up for the tax lost from the skilled and the monied who left. The middle class are decimated and the divide between rich and poor becomes wider as all that's left is the very poor and the obscenely wealthy who have lobbyist access to immunity.

We have yet to find out how Spain will deal with their mountain of financial losses but the UK's flawed 'solution' is not an option for Spain.

costabravarent said:
Saturday, February 1, 2014 @ 1:01 PM

So, my comments seem to have gotten quite a reaction. I stand by my opinion. I don't hate EYE-ON-SPAIN. I rather like the site and frequently gain valuable information when it is accurately reported. BUT, COME ON! If I have understood it correctly, the article reports an exodus that has multiplied by a factor of 13 in one year. Then it goes on to say that the information comes from the Padron which most temporary expats and illegals are not on in the first place. To get on the Padron you need to be a house owner or have a rental contract (or be a family member of one of these two). For both of these housing categories you need a source of income and if that collapses the last thing you are bothered about is coming off the register of the Padron. The local councils do a clean-up every few years and, like I said, send out letters asking people to confirm that they are still here. That definitely happened in our neck of the woods in 2012 which is the year the article deals with.

Of course Spain has economic problems. The building industry historically represents 25% of GDP. So when that crashed with the banking crisis there was a consequent increase in unemployment. On top of that (just like in Britain) many companies used the crisis as an excuse to dump unwanted staff. And of course (just like in Britain) university intake saw a massive increase around the turn of the century, so now there are thousands of Spanish (not expat) graduates without a job.

But the title claiming a "thirteen-fold rise in the exodus for foreign residents" is, in my opinion, a gross misrepresentation of the information that is available.

The article was not written responsibly and is the type of headline that we see regularly in The Mirror, The Sun, The Express and The Mail and sadly now also in the broadsheets. It is gutter-press sensationalism. The numbers given in the article relating to the 3.31% of expats who gave up citizenship looks like a much more realistic number. I am guessing (and it is just a guess) that the 13-fold increase is one of two things. It is either due to the cumulative total of about 10 years or it is in fact wrongly quoted and is really a 13% increase year-on-year.

Considering the pummeling that Spain has suffered it's not doing so bad. If you have been here like I have for 20 years or more you will know that Spain has undergone a tremendous transition from the free-for-all of black economy, corruption and no control of property etc. to a modern European state. Unfortunately many of the new controls, that were in the pipeline and are now being imposed, are impacting heavily on everybody.

But as to the article and its headline, I consider it to be very poor jounalism. We need to get more upbeat and start to talk ourselves out of this enormous pit.

harddunby said:
Saturday, February 1, 2014 @ 2:03 PM

Historically immigrants were sub Sahara and we have gone through, Finnish,German then British but the pace is escalating, the Russians have gone and now it's South America. Spain is still the cheapest place to find winter sun, but as to work and having to speak Spanish perhaps that accounts for the Peruvians a Ecuadorians.

MarkMunns said:
Saturday, February 1, 2014 @ 3:02 PM

costabravarent wrote: "To get on the Padron you need to be a house owner or have a rental contract (or be a family member of one of these two). "

That has not been my experience. I owned a car in Spain for a few years before I moved there permanently. It was cheaper to own one there as I used to go to Spain several times a year, on business, house-hunting and holidaying. At the time of registering the car at Trafico, they wanted to see my Padron. I went to the Town Hall, explained the situation and was put on the Padron using a friend's address. I did not own a house nor did I have a rental contract.
When he moved, Trafico again wanted to see an updated Padron before changing the vehicle's registered address. Admittedly, that is an unusual (but not unique) circumstance rather than the norm.

I take your point that many people don't register on the Padron and therefore, can't de-register if/when they leave. How do you account for why there has been such a sudden and huge increase? If you think it's just an outright lie, then there's no point in any further debate. All that's left is to wonder why they haven't lied so massively about it before when the country was clearly going down the financial pan and the press were being accused of 'fear-mongering' by people with their head in the sand. If it's a mistake, then the mistake can't be in describing it as a 13% increase, as you suggested, because the numbers are given as to how they arrive at a 13-fold increase. i.e. 190,020 in 2012 is approx. 13 times larger than 15,229 in 2011.

I think the point that Masco was making (apologies for attributing his/her comments to James before), is that the fact that most people who leave don't bother removing their Padron entry means that there is a number of people who have left but who are still on a Padron and therefore NOT counted in the number who have left. How many others have left who were never on the Padron and therefore also not counted? I'm sure that there are also people who have entered and not been put on a Padron but that applies to any and every year that these numbers have been collated using the Padron entries - so it would be a 'wash'.

'Consistently' using the Padron to estimate how many people have left may not give an indisputable and precise figure but it is good enough to see large year-over-year changes. Your objections against using it for these stats, while correct in its inability to achieve an accurate total, could not explain the 13-fold increase.

The only problem I have with the article is attributing even the (probably low number) of a 13-fold increase over 2011 of people leaving the country to employment issues. Finding employment in Spain has been very difficult for many, many years now - long before 2012. The year of this huge increase just happens to coincide with the asset reporting law being announced. To believe that it's just a coincidence is beyond naive.

costabravarent said:
Saturday, February 1, 2014 @ 3:55 PM

Sorry Mark but you have just clobbered your own argument. The article said that these people were leaving in droves because they couldn't find work; you say it coincides with the reporting of assets. I say you are both wrong because firstly most people didn't know about the reporting of assets till 2013 so they couldn't have left in 2012 because of it. Also if anyone has been working and declaring legally you were not required to do the new declaration of assets. It only really affected people of independent means.
And as to the assertion that they left because they couldn't find work, that would have been ok if it had been expressed as an opinion. Instead it was attached to the 13-fold as if it were the absolute reason. You and other posters suggest other points of dissatisfaction which are valid. One of the main reasons that South Americans go back home is that they discover that home was actually not as bad as struggling here without work permits.
Your story of how you got onto the Padron supports my opinion. If you move to another town you are supposed to do a change in the Padron but nobody (I mean absolutely nobody goes to do the "baja" from the Padron if they are leaving the country. It is done by the town hall several months or years later. So there is no way in God's Earth that any true statistics can connect these numbers with any reason whatsoever.
I did make a mistake about my 13% suggestion. I realised just after I clicked to send.
I studied statistics and Marketing at Uni (about a hundred years ago) and I know how critical it is to look in depth at these numbers before you assume any relationship. To assume makes an ass out of "U" and an ass out of "ME".
The person who wrote that title was in my opinion.......Well I think I have said enough.

MarkMunns said:
Saturday, February 1, 2014 @ 5:14 PM

"Sorry Mark but you have just clobbered your own argument. The article said that these people were leaving in droves because they couldn't find work"

I thought I made it quite clear that the article's decision to attribute the 13-fold increase to employment issues was the only problem I have with the article. Did you not read that? I fail to see how disagreeing with that conclusion and having a different view as to the cause could clobber anyone's argument ??

"I say you are both wrong because firstly most people didn't know about the reporting of assets till 2013"

You've made an assumption which is wholly incorrect and which has led to complete nonsense as a result.

Most didn't know but most people didn't leave either. We're not talking about *most* people. I can assure you the ones who would be affected most by the new requirements were very well aware of its possibility, and prepared for it well before 2013. They only did something about it once it was written into law.

"Also if anyone has been working and declaring legally you were not required to do the new declaration of assets."

I have no idea why you think that such an exemption exists because it doesn't. Whether you have/had been working and declaring in Spain is irrelevant to the new requirement to declare ALL worldwide assets (above certain threshholds). This applies to Spanish citizens, residents and anyone non-resident but who is in Spain for more than 183 days. Until the new law, income and capital gains had to be declared but other assets did not e.g. Overseas properties, shares, life insurance policies etc.

"Your story of how you got onto the Padron supports my opinion".

Huh? How does that support your opinion that "To get on the Padron you need to be a house owner or have a rental contract (or be a family member of one of these two)."

I wasn't a house owner, nor did I have a rental contract nor was I a family member of a house owner or rental contract holder.

Nobody is disputing whether the statistics given are accurate to the 'n' degree. We know they aren't and couldn't be. However, all the imperfections and inefficiencies of using the Padron to calculate the number of people leaving exist EVERY year and EVERY time they do this calculation. Those flaws do not and cannot account for a sudden 13-fold increase in 2012 which is many orders of magnitude greater than 2011. Within a few percentage points the +/- degree of inaccuracy in the totals will be roughly the same every year too.

If the article was making a point about the absolute number of people who have left, I'd share your concerns - but it isn't. It's the y-o-y *change* in the totals that is stunning and that can't be explained because the Padron was used because those numbers are always as good or bad a metric, approximately within the same margin for error every year.

"I did make a mistake about my 13% suggestion".

No problem. It happens to all of us but I think you've made a lot more mistakes in your rush to condemn something you don't like or want to hear.

costabravarent said:
Saturday, February 1, 2014 @ 5:25 PM

I suppose we could go on at this forever. As the lady said in the post about insurance. I've got other fish to fry. This is my last post on the subject. I just believe that we have suffered the consequences of this silly crisis long enough. It will only end when people think it has ended. As long as these sensational headlines continue they serve to prolong things and not to inform.
The article was, for me, a load of bollocks. I tried to explain why I think so but we could go on picking holes in each others arguments, while half the time actually agreeing.
Signing off but not retracting what I have said.

MarkMunns said:
Saturday, February 1, 2014 @ 5:37 PM

Yes, I agree. Debates always seem to go on longer than necessary when one person doesn't carefully read what they're commenting on; Puts words into others' mouths that were never said or written; Thinks their opinion has been supported when it was, in fact, shown to be incorrect; Makes factually incorrect statements about new Tax Laws etc.

If the input is so wrong, then the conclusions don't stand much of a chance of being right.

jamesensor said:
Saturday, February 1, 2014 @ 5:52 PM

Mark - you perhaps studied economics as well. In which case you will be aware that migration rates are influenced by wage differentials and job prospects. That is why there has been such stron inward migration to Germany, the Netherlands and the UK from poor countries both inside and outside the EU.

It would be no surprise that the migration pattern should have reversed as the Spanish economy sickened. The introduction of a wealth tax, which does not exist in any other EU country aside from France, would be a special deterrent to wealthy migrants, especially from Britain and Germany.

You are right that a thirteenfold increase seems bizarre, statistically. But I believe the figures quoted are net migration, that is the difference between recorded incomers and leavers.

Perhaps recorded figures for inward and outward migration in 2011 were almost in balance. That would produce a substantial percentage increase in 2012 if recorded inward numbers dropped and the exodus grew. However, I agree with you that this way of presenting the difference between two numbers is misleading.

In any case a net outward migration of over 3% is high for any country at any time.

MarkMunns said:
Saturday, February 1, 2014 @ 6:19 PM

james, you may be right but I didn't see anything in the article to suggest that the figures were 'net' migration. If you have seen a document suggesting that to be the case, then I would appreciate a link.

I take...:
"By the end of 2011, a total of 15,229 non-Spaniards had returned to their countries of origin or moved to other nations "
.....to mean the absolute, not net, number leaving.

I think it's always worth remembering that these figures also do not include the number of Spaniards who have left the country too.

I agree that wages and prospects are better in the countries you mentioned. It could be that all that explains is why people choose those particluar countries when they do decide to leave. After all, when you leave somewhere, you have to go somewhere - right? It follows that you're going to choose somewhere that gives you a shot at a better life (however you determine that). It doesn't necessarily explain *why* people left in the first place.

Those countries have had better wages and job prospects for many years. I find it hard to believe that reason accounts for a 13-fold increase in one year.

As I said before, it's not just 'any' year. Previous years were equally bad for job prospects but did not see such an exodus. 2012 had other, very noticeable incentives for some people to leave.

I take your point but turning it on hits head for a moment, many people left the UK to come to Spain. Spain didn't have better wages or job prospects than the UK when most of them made that decision. Many, first made a decision to 'leave'. The 'where' to go to was a secondary decision.

costabravarent said:
Saturday, February 1, 2014 @ 9:46 PM

http://javiersevillano.es/Extranjeros.htm#INE

jamesensor said:
Sunday, February 2, 2014 @ 11:44 AM

Your link suggests that Britons registyered in Spain remained stable, at least until January 1 2012 at 400,000 whilst Germans and Italians also remained constant at 200,000.

It is South Americans, who would have more difficulty in obtaining legal work permits, who have been going home.

I would expect numbers of wealthier Europeans to decline in 2014, but whether registration numbers alter is another matter.

MarkMunns said:
Sunday, February 2, 2014 @ 12:34 PM

james wrote: "Britons registyered in Spain remained stable, at least until January 1 2012".

That multi-year stability (and not just of Britons) makes the increase in the number who left by the end of 2012 even more alarming.

The 8th chart shows that there were dramatic increases in the number of people coming to Spain, as a percentage, until 2001.

The percentage increase then slowed even as the total number continued to increase until around the end of 2008 (the beginning of the first leg of this financial crisis) when the total started to level off.

It then remained fairly constant until the end of 2011 (when the data ends). 2011-2012 saw the first decrease (albeit a modest 40K). The data recorded of the total number of people in Spain ONLY covers the period up to 2012 on that webpage.

i.e. "Of the 47,212,990 people currently (1/1/2012) residing in Spain, 5,711,040 are foreigners"

It doesn't show what happened to this number during 2012 or, more importantly, what happened to it by the end of 2012 - which is when the 13-fold increase is reported to have occurred in the original article.

It's a bit rich to complain about statistics as lies, manufactured and propagated by a "sensationalist press" - and then cherry-pick a shed-load of statistics yourself when you think it supports an opinion - only to then discover that it doesn't even cover the period in question.

Even more so when the statistics that were originally derided came from the same body as some of the stats presented later.

costabravarent said:
Sunday, February 2, 2014 @ 6:15 PM

Sorry, back again.
It really is off base to accuse me of cherry picking. I tried to find some genuine broad based government figures. That's what was in the link, admittedly a year behind. I am finding it extremely difficult to get the data for 2012. The reason being that the article was also using out of date data. The numbers for 2013 were in fact available when the article was published.
The fall in the number of foreign residents in 2013 was 216,145. That appears to match the number for 2012 of over 190 thousand (which I was questioning). So this means that if the statistics are correct the net exodus of expats for the last year (2013) was 216,145. That is a year-on-year increase of about 9%.
It has taken me a while to track down these numbers but they were available when the Think-Spain article was published in Eye-onSpain. They chose to use the numbers that were a year out of date to blast a 13-fold increase.
Who was cherry-picking, mate?
I'm just little old me. I'm not a journalist.
The numbers they quoted, I now accept, came from published data but it was translated from a Spanish National which said that the increase in 2012 was PROBABLY due to a shortage of jobs.
This info has come from a couple of hours of Googling both in Spanish and in English.
I stand by my original comments. It was a cheap sensationalist headline that was not adequately researched using data that was a year out of date. And I quote once again the very famous quote (not my words). There are lies, damn lies and there are statistics.
Nevertheless I would love if someone could point us to the Institut Nacional de Estadisticas data for 2012. I found lots of references to it but not the full monty like was in my link for 2011.

MarkMunns said:
Sunday, February 2, 2014 @ 9:23 PM

Oh C'mon, of course it's cherry-picking. You start the thread off by saying "There are lies, damn lies and statistics" and then post even more statistics than the original article - compiled in part, by the very same government body that issued the first set of stats that you suggested were lies?

Stats supllied by the same agency don't suddenly become lies just because they don't support what you WANT to believe nor do they become trustworthy if and when they do.

It is also ridiculous to blame the Press as all 'ThinkSpain' did was to publish those government figures. What you did by posting a link to what you mistakenly thought was in support of your opinion was no different to what they did.

The only difference is when they do it, you call it 'bollocks' but when you do it, apparently it isn't - even when the figures are all sourced from the same government body.

Yes, that's cherry-picking - mate!

The reason you are finding it extremely difficult to get the data for 2012 is because it won't be known until this time next year - as the original article, published on 24/1/2104 clearly explains, had you bothered to read it.

I realise that these are difficult times. Your fears anxiety and emotional outbursts are very evident in your posts. However, it's no excuse for ignoring facts and living in some fantasy that stats that you don't like MUST be wrong or lies.

It doesn't and can't change what's actually happening any more than the Press reporting upon it can.

costabravarent said:
Sunday, February 2, 2014 @ 10:56 PM

I really think you need to stop and think about what you are writing. The reason I am finding it difficult to get the official data for 2012 is that it is old data. It really is last years news not last years data and the press release is no longer available online because it has been superceded. Here is the press release in PDF for the year of 2013. IT IS NOT CHERRY PICKING. IT IS BANG UP TO DATE.
http://www.ine.es/prensa/np776.pdf
It shows that for 2013 there was a 9% increase in the net difference between those that came and those that went. I have accepted that the figure in the official statistics for 2012 corresponds with the numbers in the article.
I firmly believe that there is something erroneous about the sudden jump in 2012 that continues into 2013.
I am picking up scraps of info in various places mostly in the Spanish newspaper sites. It seems that recent figures have included the repatriation of illegal immigrants not on the Padron and that efforts have been strengthened to bring the Padron up to date. There has also been a scheme of financial assistance for people going home. One other factor of extreme importance is that thousands of "extranjeros" came here over the last ten years helped by traffickers and they don't have papers. This made it impossible to return to their homeland. Not just Spain but all European countries have been addressing this problem.
So, yes, lots more people have gone home but the sudden jump from 2011 into 2012 beggars serious questioning.
But above all, this statistic was fully a year old when Think Spain and EOS headlined it.
I haven't got fears and emotional outbursts. I just like to get things right. That is why I happily agree when I get something wrong. But this is an interchange in a blog. That is very different to an exagerated, out-of-date, press report.

jamesensor said:
Monday, February 3, 2014 @ 8:33 AM

The people who have gone home are mostly South Americans, who woud find it very difficult to get work permits, in a severe recession, with mounting unemployment that Spain has sufferred.

The figures do not yet suggest any serious exodus of Britons living in Spain due to the threat of a wealth tax on their assets. I suspect that this will begin to show up when later figures are published. It is a pity that they are so late. However, Spain is not the only copuntry that does not possess accurate figures on immigrant numbers.

MarkMunns said:
Monday, February 3, 2014 @ 8:50 AM

"I really think you need to stop and think about what you are writing."

lol - You've presented data for the same period as the original article! So how much did you stop and think?

The only difference is that the original article describes the data as being 'up to the end of 2012' whereas the document you've presented says it's data up to 1/1/2013. It's still ALL 2012.

It's now irrelevant anyway as the the new numbers that you prefer to use only make your original invective even more ridiculous.

Let review:

Your whole premise from your very first post is that the 2012, 190K figure is a lie and gutter-press sensationalism for pointing out that 190K is a 13-fold increase over 15K in 2011 - even though it is not a number invented by the Press, as you'd dearly like to believe, and it's also a mathematical fact.

You have now found another, higher figure of 216K which you prefer to use for the same year.

You seem to be perfectly OK with the figure of 216K leaving Spain in 2012 even though it's higher that the 190K number that initially caused you to blow a gasket.

I don't see any point in continuing with the discussion as your confused and troubled mind seems to be causing you to spout increasingly more nonsense

e.g. 190K is too high a figure and therefore a lie in your opinion and causes you to metaphorically foam at the mouth and make emotive accusations of a 'gutter-press' and 'sensationalist journalism'

but then inexplicably:

An even higher figure of 216K leaving is OK ??

After that, I have to conclude that you're just whingeing just for the sake of whingeing.

With such a display of inconsistent logic (which seems to be all over the map throughout this thread), I really don't know what it is that you're objecting to now and I don't think you do either.

MarkMunns said:
Monday, February 3, 2014 @ 9:10 AM

James wrote: "The people who have gone home are mostly South Americans".

The totals show that 90K people from the EU-27 left which represents a 3.7% decrease.

125K people from the rest of the world left representing a 3.8% decrease.

So in percentage terms of the amount who were here in the first place, it's about the same level of exodus - which is still a dramatic change.

I couldn't find anything in those documents relating specifically to the number of Brits who left but I don't think that was ever the issue anyway. Losing people is losing people - wherever they came from.

This does represent a significant change in trend and I fail to see how it's purely down to employment prospects when those prospects were no better in the years immediately preceding 2012.

MarkMunns said:
Monday, February 3, 2014 @ 9:14 AM

Further down I did find 3.7% exodus for UK citizens. Which is inline with the totals and therefore also a significant change.

costabravarent said:
Monday, February 3, 2014 @ 12:57 PM

Let's go to the "lies" reference. I never claimed that anyone had lied. I started my first post with an extremely well known quote that dates back to around 1980. Some people attribute it to Disraeli but I think even that is a misquote. The first printed use of the quote seems to have been in the Accountant Journal of around 1890.
Here are three recent articles that use the same quote:
http://www.enterprisebritain.com/2011/graham-cookson/lies-damn-lies-and-statistics
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/education/schools/chalk-talk-lies-damn-lies-and-gently-massaged-statistics-8340811.html
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/statistics-chief-says-jobs-count-is-not-believed-1390106.html
On the basis that government statistics are frequently taken out of context to support an argument, I challenged the validity of the article on migration.
The article, dated 26 January 2014, headlined migration figures that pertained to a comparison between 2011 and 2012. I believe that it was translated from a Spanish newspaper and missed parts of the original comment.
I now see that the link I gave was for the same data and not updated like I thought. As you can see, I will admit where I am wrong. It appears that we may have to wait till April to see the 2013 data. This being so it doesn't alter my basic premise. The information was headlined as news when it refered to data from 2 years back.
It was bad and it was sensationalist and it is not worth wasting any more time arguing about it.
The rain has stopped. The sun is shining. Time to go for a stroll along the beach.

MarkMunns said:
Monday, February 3, 2014 @ 1:45 PM

You want to turn this into a discussion of the history of quotes now? Good grief!

The fact that you referenced the quote, suggesting lies in statistics signifies that you think it applies to these statistics. There many other occasions on which you have suggested that the data reported is false. e.g

"I think this article is typical of the gutter-press type of sensation"
"STOP, STOP, STOP all this stupid scaremongering"
"BUT, COME ON! If I have understood it correctly, the article reports an exodus that has multiplied by a factor of 13 in one year."
"But the title claiming a "thirteen-fold rise in the exodus for foreign residents" is, in my opinion, a gross misrepresentation of the information that is available".

I don't bother with PC terms such as 'misrepresentation'. It's either a mistake or it's a lie.
As you no longer believe that it's just a 13% increase that has been mistakenly reported, you must believe that the (gutter) Press have lied.

There comes a time when you realise that you are debating with an intellectually dishonest idiot who repeatedly only sees what he wants to see despite repeatedly being shown that the data he presents does not support his original assertion

The most recent example: "I see that the link I gave was for the same data and not updated like I thought". No shit Sherlock! Just like it hasn't been updated in every argumentative post of yours where you've said it has.

At that point of realisation, you have to just say 'whatever' and leave them to drown in their own fear-filled distortions and hateful bile.

That 'whatever' moment has arrived.

costabravarent said:
Monday, February 3, 2014 @ 7:17 PM

Go on. Have another go. It would be a pity if you didn't get the last word.
I will repose in my intellectually dishonest idioacy.
But I do think you should join the exodus and become a statistic.

jamesensor said:
Wednesday, February 5, 2014 @ 9:19 AM

Do either of you realise how intensely boring this impolite exchange is for other readers.

costabravarent said:
Wednesday, February 5, 2014 @ 3:41 PM

Yes James and also very childish. I have looked back over the posts and yours are sensible considered comments. For my part I apologise. Sometimes we ought to turn the other cheek.

jamesensor said:
Wednesday, February 5, 2014 @ 3:51 PM

Thanks for that honesty. I fear that people soetimes write thjings on the internet, which they would never say fasce to face in a bar or pub. That is a pity.

You are surely right that the headline is unduly alarmist and based on the fairly small difference between two very much large numbers (incomers and returners) which should not have been treated as a percentage.

eos_moderators said:
Wednesday, February 5, 2014 @ 3:59 PM

Please be polite and civil with all comments. Thank you

BHTHE said:
Saturday, February 8, 2014 @ 11:04 AM

costabravarent said: where has this person been.have you not noticed 25% unemployment ,110,000 property problems, Gibralta. Spain will not get real investors while all of these problems exist, it is not a sinking ship it has sunk. My contacts were bringing Billions into Spain, 1 alone 10 billion over the next 5 years(2009) we have advised all to shop elsewhere due to the small minded corruption in Tarragona. Untill our problems are sorted by Spain we and not 1 of our contacts will be back. Get real.

BHTHE said:
Saturday, February 8, 2014 @ 11:09 AM

We love Spain we love the life and the people. The corruption in the courts and amongst the Authorities make it a complete unsafe country to invest, it is now suffering due to this arrogance, and support for its corrupt officials.

MarkMunns said:
Saturday, February 8, 2014 @ 11:11 AM

25% unemployment

MarkMunns said:
Saturday, February 8, 2014 @ 11:30 AM

BHTHE, I wouldn't bother trying to explain it to them. Pointing out the obvious and highlighting their intellectual dishonesty in being blind to it (and having to do so repeatedly) - will only be rationalised in their fearful minds as 'impoliteness'.

BTW it doesn't get any more impolite than making someone have to repeat something over and over again and over again just because you don't want to accept the numbers reported).

They seem to think that the overall number of Brits leaving, being relatively low, is some indication that the leavers are NOT doing so over concern for future wealth taxes or government corruption and possible enforced asset theft.

By definition, any asset grab will only affect a small proportion of people (I read somewhere that 50% of people in the UK have less than £4,400). Whatever that amount actually is, the requirement to report's current threshhold of €50K in each asset class isn't going to see an exodus of much beyond say, 5%-10% because it won't affect 90%-95% of people who don't possess amounts exceeding that level. What the figures don't show is the net worth of the individuals who are leaving.

It isn't the wealth tax, per se, that's causing them to leave. People who were bothered by that already left when it was re-introduced a few years ago. e.g. I know of people who had assets exceeding €700K. They initially stayed and were OK with paying the wealth tax but they've left now because they've read between the lines of these new rules and, for them, they suggest an intention of a bail-in some time in the (near?) future.

If Spain do enforce a bail-in, then these people's concerns were warranted. If Spain doesn't, then Spain has been stupid for bringing these reporting requirements into force as they've now unnecessarily lost the ordinary and wealth tax revenues from these people. They have the means to easily find less hostile governments in places which are just as nice to live in, if not better. I found somewhere better and probably would not have done so if it hadn't been for the Spanish government's short-sightedness. So, I'm actually grateful for their actions.

I think it is noticeable that even though Germans number less than half of the Brits in Spain, many more of them left in 2012 which represented a 7.9% exodus compared to the UK's 3.7%.

Does anyone really believe that such a dramatic increase in citizens from the wealthiest country in Europe leaving is because "The waiter/waitress jobs that Moroccans and Lithuanians can get" became suddenly less available in 2012?

jamesensor said:
Saturday, February 8, 2014 @ 11:44 AM

Yes I do believe that jobs in construction and catering are much scarcer, than before the bust. Clearly many of those leaving are South Americans, who can no longer get work permits because of the 25% unemployment rate. Half of UK households have wealth of over £250,000 which I believe would include both property and pension fund values. A tenth have over £1m.

In an era of low interest rates people with wealth of this order will not find it attractive to become Spanish residents.

Germans tend always to be more nervous than Britons about bad economic news, so one would expect a greater exodus/

MarkMunns said:
Saturday, February 8, 2014 @ 12:04 PM

"Half of UK households have wealth of over £250,000"

Apart from the top 5%, nearly all of the rest is accounted for in UK property.

While the Spanish government knows that it has little chance of taking possession of anyone's overseas properties, pensions, offshore accounts, they will be able to take possession of any Spanish property and bank accounts in lieu of payment or court decisions.

"Germans tend always to be more nervous than Britons about bad economic news, so one would expect a greater exodus"

From what dark, smelly and racist place did you pluck that little gem?

Even if correct, do you think these nervous Nellys only suddenly became nervous in 2012 about an econoomy that already died a few years before?

jamesensor said:
Saturday, February 8, 2014 @ 12:07 PM

You are just so damnably rude that I shall not waste any more time on this site.

MarkMunns said:
Saturday, February 8, 2014 @ 12:16 PM

Wel spare a thought for me. To your racism and intellectual dishonesty, I now have to add 'hypocrisy'.

BHTHE said:
Monday, February 10, 2014 @ 12:31 PM

If any one is still in Spain, you must think that all of the problems do not exist and that you are immune some how. We have a very good case full written evidence and the Spanish Authorities do not give a dam, we could argue all day but just remember when your money is in the Bank, it is no longer your money as the bank only has to give you value or of shares, they will empty you out in Spain, they did us and they will do it to others as they have done it to thousands, hundreds of thousands. fight their case, while they rob your country men, and when it's your turn do not complain about it. I would support Military action against Spain, but the British Government is to weak willed. 110,000 robbed British citizens and you still Believe in the Spanish ?