Bank auctions

Hi I've heard that the remaining property's on on sierra golf. are up for auction
Along with the golf course next month, is this true can anyone give any info on
This are they selling the ones not sold or all property's that have not been signed over any info would be great fully received thanks Gary and Julie

It has come to my attention that this auction is being carried out by the administrators of the now bankrupt Procobar . 

For some reason details of all the properties for auction are now at the golf club - woundn't it have been nice if they were displayed in a public location ie. the Spanish Bar , since many people do not frequent the golf bar for one reason or another ?

i have also been informed that a property is listed for auction even though it was purchased for cash from MASA ! How many others are for sale that people have actually purchased ? Is this a case of Spanish practices , Land Grab , or just plain fraud ??

hi roger i totaly agree with you .as a resident of sierra golf i do beleive as a urbanisation we should have been informed of all properties that are up for auction and they should have been put in the view of all residents ..it makes me wonder whos house will be next.......dennis

If a property is sold then it will be registered to new owner at the land registry and cannot be sold by the developer so your comments that the property is old cannot be true, they cannot sell a sold property if the pbuyers have FULLY paid for it and gone through the Notary process

What is happening on some developments is when somebody has paid a deposit, refused to complete, developers and adminstrators have been advising the buyers that, because they have failed to complete, that they are in breach of contract, that they are cancelling the contracts and that they are keeping the deposits paid. In fact if the developer is in receiverhip a buyer would loose this money anyway

There is  no obligation for any adminstrator to make current owners aware of any auctions or sales but again they CANNOT sell a sold and completed property where the deeds are issued

Best to contact the bank tat is fronting the sale for information

 

 

hi inspector homes just to put all in the correct way,a couple who bought a house on sierra golf paid cash for it and gave the solicitor power of atterney .problem here looks like the solicitor didnt do his job and did not check that the developer paid of any debt hence they have now been told as debt owed on the house needs to be paid and the house will be auctioned at these auctions on sierra golf..........dennis

I am sorry Dennis, I am not sure where you are getting your information from but this just is not possible and if there was actually a lawyer involved they would be in all sorts of problems

If this is a legally built property with a COH and if they have the deeds, in their names the property simply cannot be sold at auction, if they have no deeds thene there is a simple action against the lawyer

During the completion process at The Notary the developer has to produce all of the debt certificate to prove not only to the lawyer but more importantly to The Notary that all debts have been discharged otgherwide The Notary is also responsible

When an individual completes wiktout a lawyer thene sometimes they fail to expose community debts and then the debt passes with the property to the new owners

Again very simple if they have their escatura thenthe property cannot be sold from under them without a legal case, they have legal title, lookup the recent case in Orihuela Costa

Have you actually spoke to these people is is it the classic hearsay situation

 

Hi I've been over in Spain for last two weeks and haven't seen anything about the houses in the club house .
I did play with a guy who told me there where up for auction next month along with the golf course
I've found out that my house that I have paid 75percent of but not signed for is now owned by the banks who
Have asked me to make an offer on the house before it goes to auction 'which is a joke as my solicitor says they won't take less than the mortgage the builders put on it 38000 euros as I've already paid close to 90 thousand pounds another 33 ish ain't happening as it won't be furnished solar panels gone kitchen probably gone and bathrooms might not be fitted also I might have to pay a bigger a tax as it could be classed as a resale surely there's something can be done .when I was out there all I got was well this is Spain as if it's okay these people are crooks and keep getting away with it my Spanish dream is probably over now which is a shame as I still think it had potential

gazzap I deal with bak repossessions every week and I have to tell you that if you have not paid in full for a property then you have very little choice, regardless of how much you have paid, because you have not honoured a legal contract, if the property was completed and the COH issued you were oblighed to complete

If the developer is bankrupt then again LEGALLY your contract is cancelled and if you have paid money then you may be a non-preferencial creditor and loose your money and people don't  normally realise this

The banks will typically look to sell the property for the balance of the mortgage owned by the developer, around 25% - 30% of the original offer price, your bank don't have your money

Even with a bank guarntee this is discharged and the money paid to the developer as soon the property is completed

Then of course yes the devleopers start asset stripping, removing fixtures and fittings but these properties are sold cheap because they are sold as seen, no snagging or repairs

The property tes will now become a resale as the title if the property will be transferred to bank so you will pay around 12% total for tax and completion

Now there is a lot wrong with the system, a lot wrong with the way they treat the buyers but equally if buyers had contracts, paid deposits, if the properties were finished and the necessary paperwork in place then there wasn't really any excuse for not completing, developers had no control over the economic downturn

By the way the system in the UK if you buy a property, pay deposits and the developer goes bust is the same, it happened in Liverpool & Manchester

On other resorts many of the banks properties that we have sold have been to existing owners where they are averaging down, first property at €255, second the same as they own now at €55 so they own 2 properties averaged at €155K, some bank properties we have even managed to flip already, especially 4 bed villas at €130k, originally €550k, we have even had some investors bought another 4 properties

It is a lot like the statement made on investments, property values can go up or down but if you have not signed or completed you own nothing and legally you have broken the contract

I am sorry to be be so blunt and direct about things

 

 

 

So if I had paid in full but not signed would it have been mine don't understand your first comment
Also what about people who have taken the property with out paying the full amount as people did will the banks go after the money borrowed on them by the builder like I said crooks that people like us are brushed aside while companys like grupo masa and bbva soak up all the money

Why would anybody pay in full but not sign, that statement makes no sense, if you pay you should own the property, simple, you should get deeds and be paying the community fees and IBI

Again not sure what you mean people have taken a property without paying the full amount, either they own the property and it is registered in their names with all debts and mortgages discharged by the developer, or they don't as there is  no such thing as part paying

Yes if they have no deeds, if  the property is not registered to them on the central land register, then the bank will take the porperties and they can be sold, any agreement with the developer has fone, they are bankrupt and this is an asset of the banks

Also there is a laibility for the community fees for now up to 3 years

I continually explain to people if a developer goes bust and you have paid money, you will loose that money unless the properties were not completed and your money covered by a BG

In the eyes of the law in Spain the defaulter remains either party that failed to complete on a contract and surely buyers would have got an idea that the developer was going into administration

We where told we could have had the property a couple of year ago without habitation certificate and would not have to pay the remainder till it was issued atlas international told us not to but some people did don't no if that ment it was signed over to them
So just saying what I've already been told the 90thousand I payed in cash leaving 25 percent left to pay but could not complete
Because there was no habitation cert in place
Then without notice from a Atlas who where representing us didn't tell us they had gone into administration I found out from someone on this site

First of all a property that has no COH issued os not legal to live in and mormally in the eye of the banks not complete so any payments made, if there is a BG should not have been released to the developer by the bank

If Atlas told was correct a property isn't complete and you should not complete without a COH

If people did complete then I would hope that they involved a lawyer and have legal paperwork

The law in Spain is black & white, you only own a propery when you have the deeds and the interest is whown on the land registery

In your case it doesn't matter how much you payed, you didn't complete, you don't own the property, the owners have gone bankrupt but if you have a BG, and their is no COH issued on your property, you could be able to claim all of your money back plus interest and fees

Atlas and your lawyer should be advising you on this

 

Inspectahomes, I think you are being very harsh. You forget many people paid their deposit and were never allowed to complete by Masa as they would not release them. When we put our deposit on in 2007 it was all but complete apart from garden, wall and gate. The completion date came and went and still no sign of handover. We finally took them to court and won our case in 2010, they refused to pay up even after 2 Court rulings. They finally went into Administration in 2012 and we were registered as creditors, however, we have been told by our solicitors the chance of getting anything back is non existent.

So you see, to have heard through this site that the houses are now up for auction is yet another slap in the face. We are presently embarking on the process of taking the Bank to court for lack of BG according to Ley 57/68 but that might take years again. We feel as many others do that the builders and developers are crooks who took thei money and ran and even worse are the Banks who hold our deposits and yet still have the properties to auction and make more money.

Duped by the crooks

In reply to Roy Howitt

The post by Dennis is not hearsay it is fact.  We are the couple who bought the house.  We went through Atlas and Aroca.  We used the staging payment system as per the contract. The solicitor told us to send the final payment direct to BBVA bank then MASA failed to turn up at the notary. They continued to make appointments at the notary and never turned up.  Our solicitor had power of attorney. We have not got title deeds therfore do not own the house. There are a number of houses going up for auction soon which may or may not include ours.  The reason we do not know are the administrators are unknown to the people who paid their money and there is not a list available to the public.  We have called MASA, BBVA,various notaries and are hit with brick walls. We have sent emails, letters by recorded delivery and visited in person.  No Spain is not black and white. In Scotland this would NEVER happen. Spain has many shades of grey.  We contacted a third solicitor today who wanted payment up front but could not guarantee we would get escritura.  After paying two solicitors we are cautious about a third.

Susan and John Buchan 

It is very difficult to decide where to start on these matters but I have to say again that the low is black & white, if you have not signed for a property then you don't own it

What I don't understand is why when you won a legal case that your lawyer didn't place a legal embargo on the property which would stop the bank selling it without repaying your money

An embargo would have protected your interest in the property, ask your lawyer why he did not do this, as a creditor chances of getting any money are zero

Moving on, going back before 2007 we were advising people on the purchasing process, no BG no payments, no COH no completion or release of the BG's by the banks

Legally the original agent Atlas have some responsibility for this, it would I believe be their lawyer in Torrevieja that would have dealt with the paperwork

We even did some snagging for buyers on Sierra Golf and found that the properties had COH in place so I am not certain even now why some properties wouldn't have these issued by now

Susan in you position I cannot unerstand why you would have allowed this situation to drag on for 6 years without taking action against the lawyer, agent and developer, never mind calling them I would be sitting in their offices and if they failed to repond issueing a denouncia for the theft of my money, very simple to do

I have made my own enquires via the bank and so far they cannot find any details on the auction by BBVA, tis is from a very senior manager who handles these sales, nothing on public record

 

 

Our solicitor had a Court ruling to seize a bank account from BBVA and also a property on Sierra Golf which was due to be auctioned to raise the funds to repay us our deposit plus interest plus legal fees. BBVA point blank refused to pay the money, and once Procobar declared Bankrupt all Court Rulings ceased to exist. We have a very good solicitor and I am sure she would have placed an embargo on the property had it been possible .

As for your comment to Susan we tried many times to contact and visit Procobar and hopefully sit in their office to discuss our situation. But sadly it wasn't possible to sit in their office as they didn't even have one, just a post box in a wall of a block of offices . Masa of course deny having any links with Procobar ........ Strange don't you think when Masa name and logo head the purchase contract we signed with Procobar. We visited Masa office in Alicante and they sent us all the way to Murcia to the address of Procobar knowing it was just a hole in the wall PO box.

I don't know how Atlas and the banks ever allowed this situation to get to the stage it did. Someone somewhere knew exactly that Procobar was a ghost company for another organisation ready to go bankrupt when necessary without losing a penny.

You may have an excellent lawyer but there are just a few things that sinply do not ring true

Court ruling to seize a bank account from BBVA and also a property on Sierra Golf which was due to be auctioned to raise the funds to repay us our deposit plus interest plus legal fees.

If the bank account was that belong to the developer and they went bankrupt this may be true but if the charge is placed on a prooperty, an embargo on the property, it would not be discharged as it remains with the property till discharged which is why it would be normal to place this on the actual property on your contract, protecting your ACTUAL debt and stopping them being able to sell without discharging the debt

I actually would not be sitting in the developers offyces in the case of Susan but the lawyers and the bank, I would have called the Police to their offices explaining that they refuse to provide information and that they had stolen my payment

Atlas are responsible because they sold the property and as they are registered in the UK I would be talking to conumer organisions in the UK, I know people that have done this and succeeded on another development

In Spain I am sorry to say you have tobe prepared to be emotional and scream and shout in the case of a bankruptcy the banks don't have the money

 

Roy,

You will not find anything regarding the BBVA Bank re the auction as it is , from what I have been told , being held by the Administrators who were appointed by the liquidators of Procobar.

Another point which you appear to have incorrect info. on is that ALL of us early buyers who completed in 2007 , actually received their Deeds and had their Elect. and Water meters connected BEFORE we got hold of our COH's , which we had to go to MASA's office in Alicante to collect in person and take with us proofs of ID etc. At the time of signing for our Deeds we had our Solicitors present ,Procobar and their Solicitor and also Procobar's Mortgagor , and even the original land-owner ; then there was an almighty shuffle of money and forms accross this huge boardroom table in order to complete in front of the Notary.

Now , as far as I am aware , there were people in Almeria who received their Deeds and COH's and yet , due to the corruption of Town Halls / Mayors / and other local "Planning Officials" , they have now lost most of their life savings because their properties have either been bulldozed because they have been declared illegal or the houses cannot be sold or disposed of for the same reason . This same state of affairs exists in localities such as Trampoline Hills and Valle de Sol .

It is for all of these reasons ( which are frequently given coverage in the Press in the UK ) plus endless and constant changing of Spanish bureaucracy, that endless future prospective purchasers ,decide that they won't touch any "Spanish Dream" with a bargepole and therefore that the property market in Spain is not likely to recover in the next 50 years , by which time most of us will be well and truly departed .

And another point ; how many businesses here in Spain declare and pay to the Hacienda ALL of the IVA monies they receive when they sell their goods and services ? Or is it only in the UK where traders are obliged to fill in VAT returns for periods not exceeding 3 months ? Have you or anyone else ever heard of an IVA Inspector or equivalent here in Spain ? Do they check that their Output IVA stacks up with their Input IVA ? This is a serious matter , because if Spain is ever to get out of the mess it now finds itself in , then they need all of the legal revenue they can get their hands on .

Sorry Roger again not possible as there are very strict regulations when it comes to receivership in Spain so t will be a public auction and it will be registered somewhere, as I said my banks agents will find it if it exists

I am also aware that there are some systems that allow for utilities to be connected without a COH, under special circumstances but the key question here was around people that had not completed having properties where they had part paid auctioned, as I tried to explain if they have not signed then they don't have any legal rights on the property

In Almeria it is a titally different senario, based around rustic land and where the Tiwn Hall recinded planning rights, no relivence to the issues on Sierra Golf, by the way I actually went on one of the protest marches for The Priors

I operate a legal business in Spain and trust me it is very difficult to avoid IVA, there is a back to back electronic systems for payments and receipts, many inspectors and by the way no threshold, we all pay from zero turnover and as self employed people we actually get very little from the system

I do agree that yes trading black is normal in Spain, they even used to code invoices that could be paid in this way

If owners have deeds them their properties on Sierra Golf are safe, if not they are not, if they have gine bankrupt nd you have not completed you will loose all of your payments

 

I'm glad I started this thread it seems to have ruffled some feathers
Basically can we all get together and travel from place to place sitting in offices hoping to get answers
Because clearly none of us had thought of it we've all sat on our arse doing nothing
I've lost a lot of money not cos i didn't sign cos I listened to people like you yourselves saying don't sign without coh I could have had years of pleasure had it not been for atlas and there advise and take m11 they have done everything by the book court twice and won both times so people sticking up for the system jokers where's there money
Procabar started again straight away on another grupo masa site as another company but I believe have gone bust again taking loads of deposits with them can you say something constructive inspector homes as all you do is stick up for a system that has clearly ripped a lot of people off I know there was an economic downturn but the property's where ready long before that the building company didn't do there job and get services in place for coh.