New or resale

Kerri, I think the issue is that members have spent a lot of time responding to queries of other members happily.  Then another thread starts, asking the same questions, and (because we're all so helpful here!!) members offer their solutions yet again!  I think the issue is that people will only offer repeated advice for a certain length of time before saying "hang on, we've been there before!!!"  That's why Janice, and myself previously, have said search the forum.   You just need to type in a few key words and hopefully (because, as I've said, the search facility still needs tweeking!!) you will get answers to your questions.

I believe there are a lot of professional people on this forum that offer their help endlessly, but if questions are continuously repeated, on new threads, they will just be ignored eventually (or replied to with a link to a previous post), because they've already been visited!  Hence the search facility.

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Getting it back on to thread I prefer resale as I am a touchy feely person and cannot buy into pictures or artists impressions although Georgia makes a fair point that if it is a development that is ready now then why not go for brand new! One thing I would emphasize is that with brand new ensure that everything is legal and licensed (in fact even with some resale although not so often the case) before parting with a cent of your dough. USE AN INDEPENDENT LAWYER!

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JeanSsis I am more than grateful for all the help offered by yourself and other memebers and i agree that alot of the time you do have to tread all ground and reply to the same thing over and over......yes we can use google but sometimes its is nice to know that the advice you are getting is coming from people with first hand experience.

I was not having a dig at your comments and i know that you did agree with me about the search on here not being the best........but i just feel that i have wasted peoples time. However in future what i will do is have a good search first and if cant find what i want i will post asking for people to put on any links they know of that could answer my query.

Thanks again for all the help i really  do mean it..

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Hi Kez74,

I would like to share my experience with you. Personally I would not buy off plan as there are so many horror stories lately of new developments not laying a brick until a few years later, no planning permission etc. Having decided on the location we wanted I did a lot of research of properties on the web. Narrowing it down quite a lot before actually going on the first inspection trip. To cut a long story short after being shown a lot of properties in areas we didn't want, but that was fine because at least we knew for certain where we didn't want to be, we eventually found a new development which was built, yet still had some contstruction work to be completed. We had the best of both worlds, something we could actually stand in, take in what views we had, how much sun we would have and also new enough for us to choose tiles etc. All planning was checked and we knew this was the place for us. However it did run a little over schedule but not too much. We completed recently and are very happy with our purchase so I hope this helps a little. So there are a lot of key ready properties which also have the added advantage of the 10 YEAR NHBC. Also as a lot of people believe that the market is slowing, an even better reason not to buy off plan. That is just my opinion so hope it helps a little.

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Hi Kez 74     To buy offplan now is a very big gamble as you see from this site there is lots of problems out there just waiting  for you to fall in, also in many cases you could wait years for them to start building and you might have to put down a 50% deposit .                                                                       With resale you dont have many legal problems ( if any)   but you must do it the correct way and you will be able to see the sun setting  as its not unkown for the builders to change the plans and slip more buildings on site than original plans show .                                                                                             As regards the market slowdown in Spain,  we have just spent 4 months in Spain most of the agents we saw had  nothing  to do ( only playing games on there laptops ) some  told us the truth that over the past  5years  80% of the buyers were British but that % has dropped to about 5%  as the property prices + mortgage rate increase was having a big impact on sales, there are a few people buying from all parts of the world but mostly the richer people with the cash .                                                      Many of the big agents dont like people like us who know all the pitfulls of offplan purchase they much prefer the GREEN BUYERS who know nothing and can tell them what they like to hear.   Its good to see some agents on this site that are telling the truth about the market , there are some good bargains out there  all we can say is, look careful , take your time , and enjoy the sun. happy hunting.  Regards Rosi n               

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Sorry to disagree and confuse you, kez, but if you do your homework (and it suits you) there are some good off-plan developers out there.  The problem is, trying to find them.  After 5 years of looking, we found one and they were very proud to show off their excellently built properties.  They didn't have show homes, just places they were selling right next to where we have bought.  We know it will take two years for our property to be ready but that's just what we wanted.  Somewhere to look forward to when we retire.  An immediate sale (resale) would have been no good to us at the time.  We have a holiday home so we can visit and check progress whenever we want.  And we picked a developer who have proper offices in a proper building right next to the area we are buying in, not a caravan or show home they set up shop in and then move to another location.  That is very important so that we can contact them well into the future. 

I agree that looking at artists' impressions are not very good but if the developer has built similar homes in the area you can look at those and even ask the residents what problems they are having, if any.  We asked residents just across the street from where they are buying and they are very happy.

Horses for courses but I would suggest making up your own mind and doing nothing until you are happy.

Good hunting.

 

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I totally agree with Bobaol.

You can't just dismiss off plan property cos' Joe bloggs had a problem with his!

Problem is, here on EOS, we don't seem to have members who have had problems buying a resale.

There must be someone who has had a problem with a resale?!

If you are out there, post on this thread to give a more balanced view!

Thank you1

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Good point Fibby. Naturally, the stories on EOS relate mainly to new build, but it would be good to get some balance. Not wanting to sound negative, but there are of course many potential pitfalls when buying older properties as well.

Building surveys are not common in Spain, and as a result you could find yourself buying a property with structural problems that you were unaware of. You may be buying old drains & plumbing, old electrics, an old leaky roof etc. Build quality is not what you expect in Northern Europe, so "old" can be anything 10 years or more!

If you buy a rural property, you could find yourself embroiled in the land grab nightmare that has been going on in parts of Valencia, or faced with huge bills for new infrastructure, as is happening in parts of Andalucia.

If you buy an apartment in part of a community, fortunately now notaries ask for evidence that all fees have been paid up to date, but that's not to say that there aren't new lifts on the way, or a repaint of the facade, or a complete update to the obsolete and frankly dangerous electrical installations. You could take over your property, and suddenly find yourself faced with unexpected additional community bills for such work. If possible, ask for a copy of the minutes from the last AGM, or even better, go speak to the administrator of the community. Somewhere in a communal area (usually in the main entrance) there should be a notice board, on which all the bad debtors will be named and shamed. Check this out - if it looks like the community is owed a lot of money, alarm bells should start ringing.

I'm sure I could go on, but maybe this will spark someone who's actually had a bad experience to tell us about it!

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Just when you think these off plan sellers have diddled everyone as much as they can, they come up with another one you can't believe.  When we ordered ours (reserved?) the blurb said 18 months after ordering and they would be ready.  Being Spain, we thought, hmmm well, probably 2 years.  And guess what?  Just to show you can't believe everything, the damn builders are getting our place ready ON TIME.  Darn it, you just can't trust anybody nowadays.  In fact, they've even said it will be ready 2 months early so they can sort out any problems and we can inspect it but don't have to pay until the full time is up. 

Sheesh!!! Who can you believe nowadays. 

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With regards to not everyone involved in the off-plan market being dishonest crooks;

I'm quite prepared to accept that but the whole industry has now earned a bad reputation.
With the sharing of information on the internet and general word of mouth, not to mention the relentless bad press here in the UK, you cannot get away with ripping people forever.
IMHO it appears that is not just a few bad applesspioling the barrel, rather the reverse and why should buyers search through the countless set-ups trying to find an honest one?
The whole industry needs to sort itself out, even if it did, it would take years to regain the confidence of potential buyers and of course it doesn't tend there, corrupt local government needs sorted aswell.

The maim thing that switches me off to off-plan, are the agents who push it to the limit because of higher commissions and totally ignore the resale market. My simple rule of thumb now is, once I've told the agent I'm not interested in off-plan, I want to buy resale if they continue to push it, I just walk away.

It's very unfortunate that the genuine agents/developers will also suffer. Although they should still benefit from the word of mouth from happy punters.

The corrupt outfits rely on expensive marketing, hotel exhibitions etc, then whipping victims out to Spain on the next flight and getting a deal done before sunset and a few people must be still falling for it.

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Totally agree with your last post smccartney.  My problems with my first place started by going on the inspection trip with the big boys (after an exhibition) and taking what was on offer.  At the time, I didn't know any better.  This time, I have ignored the big boys and gone directly to the builder/developer.  When I say "this time", I mean after looking around for 5 years.

My point is , there are some good ones out there.  After coming on sites like this and asking around, I think I have found a good one because they are there and I now know what to look for.  It's a shame most of them are just after the big money and don't really care once they have your money.  Again, my point of finding a developer who is part of the community,  not those who operate out of caravans, is a valid one.

To twist the old joke about lawyers, it's a shame 95% of developers give the rest of them a bad name.

 

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Hi Roberto,

Thought I would bring this up "to the top" again, glad you agree...........

Can we have any, if there are, views on the down side of buying reslaes please?

Just to balance this equasion, wow, another big word from me, bet I spelt it wrong!

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No doubt there are potential pitfalls in buying resale also but I think the only one mentioned so far is "black money." I would also be very  interested to hear of anyone's problems with resale purchases.
Seem to be having trouble finding anyone able/willing to share a bad experience. That could be because a much higher % of first time UK buyers have bought off-plan. I wonder if the %'s are reversed for those who have moved or bought for a second time?

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I think downsides of resales have been pointed out in several threads.  First, the cost.  Resales are ready straight away and will, therefore, be more expensive than buying "in the future".  For example, I was offered a "resale" (no-one had ever lived there, they bought to make a quick profit) at 190,000 euros when the off-plan (which was also key in hand) was for sale at 180,000 euros.  The owner of the resale had paid his tax and wanted his money back including the tax.  The new buyer would then have had to pay transfer tax on top of that.  So, one problem with resales is the double tax you have to pay.

Secondly, the problem of illegal builds does not go away with resales.  Many of the homes at Catral are now 6 years old and are on their second buyer.  They have now been declared illegal due to a corrupt mayor but this affects both off plan and resale buyers.

Thirdly, it may only be a Valencian problem, but the land grab only applies to existing and resale properties.  Buy a resale in the country and lose half your property and pay for the privilege.  

Old bills.  Buying a resale takes on the debts due on the property.  Yes, your solicitor should have sorted it but we have all heard horror stories of solicitors.  Imagine buying and then finding a huge water/electric/telephone/community charge bill etc etc which hasn't been paid.  At least on a new one you are starting from scratch.

Bad workmanship.  Many resales have to be rewired because of sub-standard electrical wiring.  New regulations have tightened up on that (but please don't quote me, after all, this is Spain). 

You get a 10 year guarantee with a new one.  Yes, it is supposed to carry on with a resale but I have read in the CB News where the builder has said the contract was only with the original buyer.  10 year guarantee out the window with a new buyer.

I'm sure the list goes on.  All we're trying to do is point out the pitfalls which "could" appear and show that buying a resale is not the be all and end all.  Read some of the local papers to see the drawbacks in both cases and, please, don't think that all your problems will disappear overnight because it is an established building. 

Anyway, enough doom and gloom.  As i've said before, many thousands of property purchases go through without a hitch every year.  It's only the few bad apples that spoil the barrel that we get to hear about. 

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An extra 10k (approx 5%) for being able to move straight in, no worries about if or when it'll be finished, snagging done, utillities connected and able to see the bricks and mortar.

Having said that, I think I would 've offered below 180K using the off-plan as a bargining tool.

Do you know if they ever got the 190K?

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bobaol   Sounds like you picked a good site  and just about finished as well, my message about offplan is only is just our view as having lived (almost) in Spain for 7 years we have seen both sides of the property down/up ,  many people reading these replys about property  buying might only spend  2 or 3 weeks in Spain each year as they live in the uk and are working , when you live in Spain most of the year you meet many people and you see many problems first hand ,  95% of the people we met over the years who bought offplan had problems with no  building started or running late ( 2 years )  they all used the big agents .We never met anybody that bought a resale that had any major problems they must have all picked good lawers .    It would be very interesting  to see how many people reply to problems they have had with resales  , As regards the tax it works out about the same on new or resale when you buy.      have a nice day    Rosi n

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In the interests of a balanced argument and playing devils advocate! As I have made very very clear I am a firm believed in resale in being the best option FOR ME. I am a touchy feely person and cannot buy artists impressions and the hope that what I put my deposit down on will eventually reach my aspirations but I will recount a negative experience on the resale side. I have bought a house which was valued and surveyed in the normal way and given a clean bill of health. It all looked perfectly good and seemed an excellent construction (even for an 11 year old Spanish build). However a neighbouring property had a dividing wall constructed by the builder to raise the level of the land for their plot 6 years later so that the house would end up with sea views. The constructor has built the land up by about 3 metres but decided not to construct the retaining wall in such a manner as to be safe and secure. The result is that over time the wall has started to move quite siginificantly and bows in the middle under the weight of the neighbours garden and general ground movement. The vendor who sold the house to us had screened the wall with conifers so it was not apparent to anyone who looked at it.

We have a case against the neighbour as it is in theory their wall. They have a case against the builder they bought the house from as it was he who built the wall. After several meetings the builder is trying to absolve himself of responsibility although he agrees the construction is of extremely poor quality and his answer is that we should sue the neighbour who in turn will sue and denounce him and pursue through the courts. This process will take 4 or possibly 5 years after appeals during which time the wall will possibly collapse and the neighbours garden, pool etc will end up in ours. He has offered a possible solution which is currently being considered. It is not the ideal but I will keep you informed.

That being said the same situation could occur with someone buying off plan, but I thought I should give a negative story to buying a resale. Regarding property debts being taken on by a new purchaser exactly the same can happen with brand new or off plan and as long as your lawyer does his job correctly this should never present an issue so that is not exclusive to resale bobaol. Developers can take out additional loans against properties or run up utilities debts etc - in all cases the lawyer can ensure this does not get passed on to the buyer.  

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Some very interesting points in the last few posts, but I will have to reply from my viewpoint.

If you decide to buy a resale, then you must ALWAYS check there is the first licence of occupation granted on that property. Buying an off plan will NOT guarantee that one will be issued. Nowadays very few people are either offering or accepting black money. It is not advised and you as the buyer should stipulate this before going to view anything.

With regards to price differentials, I am afraid I have to disagree with you Bobaol. We have off plan resales, where an origianal buyer now HAS to sell. When I go to view these units, I have my own formula for working out a seliing price. This price in 99% of cases will be 20-30% lower that the price they ORIGINALLY paid for it 2 or 3 years ago. Therefore if you compare the today selling price by the developer and the reduced previous price, my prices will be many many thousands in difference. For example I have a villa for sale, now valued and selling by developer at 700,000 euros, the price on the one I have is 490,000 euros. Key ready to move in to tomorrow. And with sea views.

I use the same reasoning for resales - it makes no odds to me whether resale or off plan. The market price is the market price.

With regards to the double tax, if you buy direct from the developer then yes there is only 1 purchase tax, if you buy from someone who bought originally off plan then theoretically there is 2 taxes, but to be honest, the price you pay is the price you pay. From this price you determine your purchase costs. If the seller ups his price by his own purchase costs then that in fact is the actual purchase price. I do not take any of that into account. i value the property in accordance with the market price at that time.

Off plans will have their own problems. You can inherit debts left by the developer. I know urbanizations where lfo's are granted but some landscaping hadnt been finished. Developer doesnt do it and either its a court case or the community pay to sort it out. Settling cracks will and do appear, even a while after the complex is finished. in the extremes of temperatures we have here, all may be well until the heavy rains come. Then suddenly lands move. walls crack, basements flood.

With resales you know the settlement problems and usually they have all been resolved. Communities run smoothly, yearly budgets are as low as they can be. People have moved in and the place is occupied. Less problems with break-ins. There are numerous examples I can give.

Off plans have the advantage of no one else has lived there, but can and will come with their own problems

The answer is to buy what you want to buy at a price you are happy with. Nothing else really matters.

 

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Buying Spanish resale property may not be problem free but it would appear after several days debate on this thread and others, that it is less problematic.
I'm convinced that in the past, the main reason most Brits have bought off-plan, is because of sales techniques used by agents pushing off-plan  to gain the higher commission available to them from developers.

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Again, not sure if that's true.  We bought through an agent but the price were are being charged is exactly the same at the builder is offering them for sale at.  After we'd bought, we had a few little niggles of doubt that we were getting conned so we went back a few months later and asked the builders if we could see a show home.  They didn't have show homes but showed us one across the road that was ready for occupation.  We asked how much it was and were quoted €212,000.  This compares with the €204,000 we are paying for our off-plan one.  When we asked how much for one we would have to wait for (18 months was quoted with a "probably" 2 years) we were quoted €204,000.  The contract lays out the price, when instalments are to be made and also the bank into which to pay them.  The only contact we now have with the agents is that we transfer the money to their account and they pay the builders.  Maybe, in this case, the builders pay the agents?  Don't know, to be honest, but that's how it worked out.  Oh, and the agents charged us €538 for setting it all which seems a reasonable amount.  We are, however, using our own solicitors which caused no problems (the agents in this case are MASA).   They did insist on showing us other properties but very half-heartedly as they realised we had already made up our minds AND were perfectly honest in saying the first one was by far the best.   And this was not on an inspection trip as we made our own arrangements for getting there and have our own holiday home which we stayed in.

Off-plan also suited us very well as we don't want to retire there for a couple of years therefore we bought at the then current price and have had the time to get everything sorted out, ie selling our UK place.

I agree, resale is the best idea IF you are ready to move immediately and have the funds available.  But I am trying to point out that off-plan is not the horrendous deal some people are trying to make out.  Do your homework, find a good seller and pick what suits your personal arrangements.  Ask other people who have bought what there experience is (Brits will certainly be the first to give you the horror stories),  It would be horrible to select your ideal resale and then find you need more time to than the seller is willing to wait for.  You pays your money and you takes your choice. 

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