a hi and advice needed

just wanted to say hi and appologise in advance as this might upset a few people but wanted to ask some advice ,

I have been in spain for 8 yrs now and live in a small villiage inland , i have been a fully legal builder for some 5 yrs now with a s.l company . so i have been paying taxs and social payments since day one , In our villiage there are lots of illegal builders close but there are two which are now working 6 days a week telling people they are legal how ever one is retired from the uk and does not pay taxs and is not autonomo or owns a registered company so does not pay into the socail system at all , the other is claiming disabilty benifit from the uk and again telling ppl he is legal builder as he pays taxs on his benefit in the uk ! uptill now i have turned a blind eye to them all , but now they are following me when i go to give quotes and under cutting me ( which is easy done when you dont have to pay iva , taxs , accountants bills , social payments and so on) and because the state of spain at the moment ie almost bankrupt i think it would be better for andalucia and me as well if i reported them for doing what they are doing , and before you all start ranting at me for wanting to be a grass to the authoritys below is my opinion .

we all moved to spain for a better life

most of us moved to spain for a more relaxed lifestyle

most of us living here want to stay here

most of us have complained about illegal workers in the uk when we lived there to friends or family

so if all the ex pats went illegal (working on the black) ie the bars , the legal builders , the lawyers and so on how happy would we all be ? the people who are working ilegally are having there taxs paid for by the people who are legal hence self employment is so dam expensive here ! everyone who has a company here or is legally self employed will always say its very expensive here to be legal and it will only get more expensive the more of us who dont pay into the country we now live in !

I made a commitment when i moved to spain and in return for the hospitals , doctors , police and a more desirable lifestyle to the uk i paid my taxs and social ! so enough is enough in my opinion i know every ones struggerling but when someone decides they want to do something to make a living out of and its illegal and do it my expense i think ive got the right to get the hump ? the ones who do the odd job just for drinks money or to survive is a totally different thing in my mind .

 so before you have a rant ask yourself these things , when you was in the uk working and you paid your ni and tax then one day you lost your job because the company was loosing money because there was someone doing the same thing but not paying taxs or vat or ni so they could always under cut you on price , how would you feel ?

how many of us have said the following when we was in the uk " dole scrounge " dole dosser" and so on ? at least they have deductions made to pay some back into the system ! the majority of ex pats in spain seem to be either doing or encouraging worse when we either employ a illegal worker for something or work on the black  ,

so onto my main question should i report them ? and if so who to ? can i do it annonymously or do i have to do it in person ?

and  if you think i shouldnt why not ?

Hi 

I can't answer all of your questions, however I have a lot of sympathy for you.  I am a qualified Reflexologist, Indian Head Massage therapist etc.  I had hoped to continue with this on a part-time basis when we moved here, until I looked at the costs I would incur being self-employed, on top of insurance and professional fees.  I know expats over here do work as complementary therapists without declaring it, but I wouldn't do so.  Where we live, in a small Spanish town, I would actually be taking clients from Spanish complementary therapists if I did this.  Would this be fair? 

OK.  I admit that I gave a treatment to a friend who "accidentally" left a 10€ note behind, but I think that equates to your "drinks money" comment - though in my case, it was "shoes money"!

In the case of the person on disability benefit, you should report this to DWP as he is clearly claiming benefits dishonestly!  I'm not so sure about the retired person, although I guess if he is not registered as a Spanish tax resident, he should be paying tax in the UK, so again he is acting dishonestly as far as HM Revenue & Customs are concerned. 

If anybody doesn't like your comments, they should consider the following.  Neither of the two illegal builders is contributing to the Spanish economy (if I understand you correctly), whereas you are.  If you don't get these jobs and they do, you might go out of business in which case you will be unable to continue contributing to the Spanish economy.

I will be interested in hearing other people's opinions and advice.

Best wishes.

Sue

Hello

You have my sympathy as I know from friends how difficut it is to run a business legally in Spain. The people who work for so called pin money really annoy me as they are the ones who are the first to complain about benefit spongers etc etc.in UK. It is amazinghow some people can leave their moral values behind at the airport.

As for the so called disabled builder. First of all report him for working whilst claiming disability payments.. There is a benefit reporting hotline to the Consulate  but I do not know the number I am afraid. Otherwise do as Sue suggested and ring DWP.

As they are not declaring their work in Spain you could try a denuncia at the Guardia Civil or Hacienda. The only thing is I do not know if you can do this anonymously.

All the best

Jean

I have been in Spain for 30 years and always been legal and paid my taxes, social security etc.

In Spain it doesn´t matter if you are paying taxes in the UK, you must be autonomo, pay S.S. and declare your taxes, VAT, 3 monthly and yearly.

The best you can do is denounce these cowboys to the tax office, before you could do it annonymously but I don´t know now, also denounce them to the UK offices aswell.

We legal people shouldn´t loose our business because we pay taxes and high Spanish S.S. payments, don´t feel sorry for these people, make them realise that if you move to another country you must abide by the laws.

Good luck!!

thanks for the replys so far , and deffernatly not the answers i had thought i would get , i thought i was going to be shot down and pleased i wasnt , and got to say sorry for the ramble on , just read it back and i didnt even know i could of wrote so much without thinking lol !

 I know you can do a denuncia online but you ve to give dni or nie so dont think thats on the hush hush and knowing how clicky the ex pats are here if they find out i have reported another ex pat i might as well shut up shop well to the english anyway and the spanish have got less money than the ex pats so they normally use spanish builders "keep it in the family" so to speak

 anyway just to confirm the ones who do jobs for pin, shoe , drink money a few hours here and there i cant complain about as it is tuff for everyone , everywhere and think we have all done some of it at sometime but when people do it and earn 1500+ a month total tax free and have other income it just winds me so i do tend to rabbit on ;-) specially when ya have been thinking what to do for as long as i have .

Newbiekev

A while back I made a similar posting about VAT/IVA being an optional tax becuase that's what it feels like most of the time.

Whether Spanish or ex-pat, professional or tradeperson, this is going on the whole time. Even those registered and in the sytem try to declare the absolute minimum. This is partly due to Spain's harsh tax and unfair tax system and with VAT increases I guess we will see more of this.

I have also been very critical of ex-pats charging Spanish VAT on their so called " invoices" or dockets when I know full well they have no intention of declaring it. On the otherhand I have found Spanish tradesmen to be fair and not charge VAT for cash.

A couple of years back I went to a Spanish builders yard and bought a load of stuff and arranged for delivery etc. I paid driver when he delivered and got proper invoice etc. Anyway a little while later I went back and got more stuff and he quoted me less and when I asked why he said something along the lines of you're doing the work yourself and paying cash so no need to worry about VAT and also I think I was on a new (reduced) price list also! I didn't complain but I did notice being treated better!

In a country like Spain where this practice is the norm you may have to consider joing them and declaring a minimum becuase if you have to budget income tax and VAT then how can you compete? You obviously know you can also buy materials for cash so you may have to start dealing cash.

But even in the UK in the home improvement sector this practice is also quite common.

newbiekev-You must report these people by what ever method possible. If you fear recrimination then find a way of reporting them anonymously, there is always a way, and some body will listen.

As for the one claiming Disabilty Living Allowance, if you want to pm me his details I will gladly report him. My son is severly disabled, and I will take pleasure in passing on his details. If he is falsly claiming allowances he is not entitled to he could be commiting fraud, a crime for which jail sentences are not unknown.

As for them following you and under cutting you, you should be able to use a little creative thinking to loose them.

You said you thought you would be shot down, not a chance, unless of course it came from others doing the same as the two you mention. One may well be a cowboy the other a lowlife sleazeball.

Faro, I don't think you should be encouraging newbiekev to join them. Of course there is a cash culture in every society and most likely every self employed person is guilty of under declaring somwhere along the line. Tax and VAT authorities are aware of this and it is almost impossible to stamp out, but at least we still pay tax and VAT, these clowns pay nothing,and to sink as low as falsly claiming DLA, where do you draw the line?

The Spanish tax authorities accept the situation as it is and only hound those that try to be honest. In fact they only hound those that submit returns and pay taxes - ie those in the system!

Anyone in Spain and renting has nothing to fear as long as they don't keep too much money in their bank account and if in this cash world they probably don't even have a bank account and also probably no NIE number either - so NOT in the system at all.

If the Spanish tax authorities want people to be upfront and honest then they also have to play by the rules and intoduce a customer charter and stop taxing people on deemed amounts and start treating and communicating with people fairly. Also stop treating foreign people harshly in their tax legislation.

So you go to Spain and buy a house what happens the Junta rob you of more transfer tax becuase you found a bargain.

You sell cheaply they re-value the property and write to you and say you owe additional capital gains tax.

How many poeple trying to be honest have fell foul of the Spanish tax rules and been threatened with embargos if some vast sum + penalty + interest is not paid with x number of days? If I recall even Justin (EOS) had some tax problems recently.

The Spanish tax authorities have no concept of international business an you can't speak to them!

Spain when it comes to legal and tax is a complete farce.

newbiekev-you asked for advice, and judging by the tone of your initial post and subsequent post you are really looking for support as you know they should be reported.

The guy claiming DLA is commiting fraud in the UK regardless of any tax evasion he may be commiting in Spain.

It is easy to give bad advice from a port of safety.

Well said redsam,  I agree with everything you have contributed.

on that basis he would have to report the majority of businesses in Spain.

If you walk into any business on the poligonos and ask a price and then ask if that price includes VAT they say no but if you want an invoice they will add VAT on top otherwise for cash that's the price you pay.

and what to you think the majority say?

I have brought a property but cannot moved to Spain for another 2 years ( finances ) however I am sick and tired of people like these builders. It seems that some people who go to Spain, no matter what they did in England, become qualified builders over night. Of course you should report them, and I know it will be difficult for you, but if everyone including me when I finally get over there, reported illegal builders, electricians and plumbers etc. Then perhaps the expats can lead the way in cleaning up Spain.

By the way, the so called disabled builder needs reporting to UK

Hi, try this for the one claiming disability & working.      http://campaigns.dwp.gov.uk/campaigns/benefit-thieves/english.asp

I'm surprised that the Spanish builders haven't issued denuncias as times are extremely hard.

hi everyone for the replys

see if i can comment on a few of the replys

faro : thanks for the comments but i would like to make a few comments , you should not tar every ex pat with the same brush , there are lots of ex pats who are not even iva registerd and charge iva i agree but not all of us , when i moved here i decided to be legal because i prefered spain to the uk , i had paid yrs of tax and vat in the uk , and now live here , so only fair i support the country i live in and gain from . yes the iva in spain does seem very voluntry but i have not paid into the system for 20 yrs here so how could i justify to my self living and gaining from spain without paying into the system ?? as far as spain and tax being a farce all i will say is we all chose to live here for what ever reasons , we all would be the first to complain if we lived in england still and say the polish didnt pay into the system but took out of the system wouldnt we ? so why do ex pats do different in the sun than they do in the rainy uk ? is it sun stroke ? ????

as far as the spanish buisness's go yes the majority do or will bipass the iva if asked but i for one will not do as the spanish do in lots of ways , number one i wont go to bull fights :-P 

redsam : i supose your right and also wanted to justify what deep down i knew what i should do ! does that make sense ?

as you probably know the ex pats inland can be funny sods , cheap skates otherwise they would live on the coast if it was affordable well most of them would , and i surpose everyone needz some backing when they want or need to do something they wouldnt do as a rule , if there was a way of getting the gaurdia to give them a talking to to give them a chance to go legal then i wouldnt hessitate for a moment , but if i denounce them then it will wreck their lives or maybe they just want to go back to the uk LOL  , thanks for the offer of reporting the guy claiming disabilty but i can do that as thats easy to do on the hush hush .

seashells : i agree as a visitor in reality to spain i do not and do not want to do what the spanish do illegally , i moved from the uk  because i did not agree with the way the uk was , so why would i contridict myself and do what i hate in the uk here ??

guslopez thanks for the link ;-) , as for the spanish builders they are proberbly either thinking of the lose of business as i am and also the majority are illegal as campo life is so black its unreal , even the town hall employs on the black ! but i have never done as the romans have done even when i was in rome ;-)