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 Hi folks, we have been told the deeds have been signed for the apartment.  Now I have spoken to some people that want to leave the deeds with solicitors, I think I would rather have them myself can I ask what everyone else has done on the forum ?  I would like to say that I love this forum and it has helped me a lot  Pat 


This message was last edited by Pat and Roy on 5/4/2007.

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If you think you have a safe place to keep them, by all means ask for them.  However, I would suggest a copy of the deeds should be given to you and the original left with the solicitors for safe-keeping.  I have owned my house in UK now for over 20 years and the deeds are still with the building society.  I will only get them when I sell my house and, even then, will doubt if I see them.  I do, however, have a copy (somewhere, now, where the hell did I put them??  I'll just go up in the attic and see if I can find them........nope, let's see if they're in my state of the art filing box.....nope, not in the cupboard under the stairs either, hmmmm I definitely knew I had them somewhere.......Good job the originals are in a safe place)....

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 Thanks  Bobaol. for that info very helpful. I have to speak as I find we went with Iberian Feb 2005. and we had a smooth ride all the way through perphaps we were lucky but we have met other people in Formentera that have dealt with them and seem quite happy. Thanks again Regard Pat 


This message was last edited by Pat and Roy on 5/5/2007.

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Not necessarily important to have the original deeds, but ask your representative to send you a Copia Simple, which is available from the notary immediately after signing. This is a simplified version of the original (which won't be available for a good few weeks anyway probably) and contains all the important info you'll ever need relating to the property. It usually only runs to a few pages. It's worth making a few photocopies of this yourself, as they will come in handy later for all sorts of unexpected things!

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Can anyone give me advice.  I'm at my wits end !   The sale should have been going through on my apartment last week.  The buyers have stayed in my place for 2 weeks.  Now the buyers have decided to pull out of the sale as they don't like someone on the complex !!!  I know....It gets worse...My solicitor is acting for me and the buyer and I have a feeling that I won't get my deeds and documents back until I pay him, as this is the eleventh hour !   I cannot get hold of him on the phone, he hasn't answered my emails.  My agent is a complete waste of time and I smell a scam.  I am still in the UK.  I have an email from the agent confirming that she had received the buyers' deposit of 3000 euros prior to all this happening.  Surely this covers any fees incurred if they pull out ?  What a pathetic excuse for pulling out.  I suspect that they couldn't get a mortgage.  I have argued this with the agent a few weeks ago as this is the first thing that should have been done.  They were arranging a second survey on my property for mortgage purposes.  It's only 18 months old.  I know my agent is lying.  I have no choice but to go over, I know, but what legal backup within the law do I have to get my documents back without having to incur rediculous fees for nothing.  PLEASE, can anyone help !

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What "documents" are you worried about? The deeds that your solicitor has are not that important anyway - I've never needed any original deeds for anything, not even when selling a property. As long as you have a copy somewhere, with the Land Registry details, that's sufficient. You can always get a new "original" from the notary where you signed to buy the place.

What kind of contract was signed for this sale? It is normal for the buyer to forfeit the deposit if pulling out of the sale. That would certainly be enough to compensate the agent for doing......what? And your solicitor for doing......not much so far.

Why was the buyer staying in your place? Was there an agreement for you to receive rent for the period they spend there? Are you sure they will leave? Sorry to add to your concerns, but this seems a very unusual arrangement to me.

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Thanks, Roberto.  More relieved hearing that it's not beneficial for this "solicitor" to keep my deeds.  I have always kept copies of anything given to this solicitor and also have a separate copy of my mortgage document.   I thought that was the whole point of parting with the deposit ~ to cover any costs should the buyer pull out.  The agent is such a weak link and I am convinced that she cannot obtain mortgages.  I thought the "solicitor" may try and charge me for power of attorney, which we sorted out at the notary about a month ago.  If he did want me to pay for this, what would be the rough cost?  At the end of the day it isn't MY fault that these buyers have pulled out of my sale.  Fortunately, the buyers have gone from the property and I demanded the agent take all keys back to the president of the community.  This was done today and they have checked my property and all is fine with it.  The "buyers" were in my place as the completion was arranged for around 2 days into their arrival.  I didn't question rent as I was lead to believe that this was the completion date.  They decided to pull out the day they left.  Hmmm... 2 weeks later ! I smell a scam.      I want to take this further as I believe the agent has received some "rent" of sorts from these people.  I believe the agent to be unscrupulous and maybe the "solicitor" is "in" on it too.  Would there be any benefit for the solicitor to keep any of my paperwork and try and blackmail me into paying something.  Sorry, to sound so suspicious, but I have had my trust betrayed.  Is there any trading standards in Spain that would be interested in this agent's schemes?  My property and agent is in Costa Blanca.  Thanks again,

Kev

 

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Hi Kevin,  Glad you sound a bit happier.   I am sorry but I do not understand why you let someone stay in your place before you had completed is it me being dumb?  Saying that we have a son that did that in Crete with his villa but he did know the people but I thought that was dodgy , but it did go through alright.    But I would like to know who you have used  solicitors and agents We are in the Costa  BLANCA and I would  hate other people to be caught.   I cannot belive they stayed their for two weeks and did not pay anything.  That would not have happened.   Let us know how you get on.    Good Luck.  Hope it all works out Regards Pat

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Hi Pat,  Thanks for the reply, but I think it's quite urgent you contact me with your location.  Is there a way I can contact you privately via email or private message?  Kev

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I don't think I worded that as I meant it to read.  Looking at your location in the Costa Blana, I think it's important that you contact me privately.  I mean without displaying email addresses on this forum meassge.  Regards, Kev

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HI kevin,  Yes you should be able to send a if you just  type in your message then click on Private Message. At the end Regards Pat  

This message was last edited by Pat and Roy on 5/27/2007.

This message was last edited by Pat and Roy on 5/27/2007.

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Pat, Watch this space...these people need to be exposed. I've mailed you.

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Pat, Sorry.  Cannot see how to Private Message.  I've sent you an email (the conventional way).  Kev

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Kevin you did it just now and it worked just click on private message then type.  Pat

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Hi  Kevingames.   Sorry to hear of your problems with your buyer  but this does happen ,as you say looks like a fishy connection there , the buyers should have paid a 10% deposit ontop of the 3000 eur ,they should loose that under the Spanish legal system but what was written in the contract that you both signed , did your lawyer take this 10%  sometimes they will pass it over to the buyer,  as you have found out its not very good having the same lawyer as conflict of interest pops up in your case , but the whole lot smells as nobody is speaking very much about it from your legal  team, but you have the apartment back  thats lucky as many people have big problems getting tenants out, its a good idea to have your locks changed as soon as possible.   Best of luck getting your money back.  Rosi n

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Kev, I think it sounds like you already figured out how to send a private message to Pat (no e-mail addresses published here!) but just in case and for future ref., you need to be logged into the members area (top right of the page), then each message will have the member's forum profile and link to send PM. Incidentally, it's a good idea to update your own profile (by clicking on the link at the top of the page "forum profile", so pther members will know where you're based.

In answer to your questions, it would be reasonable I suppose for your lawyer to want to charge you for the services provided so far, although acting for the seller doesn't involve very much at all. If he was also acting for the buyer (which would represent a serious clash of interests) then he will have incurred more expenses, but these should without question be for the account of the (non!) buyer, and should be recovered from the deposit that was paid. If the agent is holding on to that deposit (as I would expect them to) then the lawyer should claim his costs from them.

It seems fair to me that your lawyer should charge you for the power of attorney, since there will have been a charge at the notary for registering it, plus his own admin charges for preparing it (not hard!) Although I'm sure these things can vary enormously, as a reference, my partner recently signed a power of attorney at our local notary (didn't use a lawyer, just went straight to the notary and told him what we wanted). The notary charged €46.

Hope this helps.

Incidentally, why return the keys to the president of the community? Is he a friend, or someone you trust in particular?

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Thanks, Roberto.  Your information is very helpful.  Yes the President is trustworthy, a friend and lives on the small development.  If it isn't necessary to have the "original" deeds, then what about the other documents such as the "Certificate of Habitancy???" which I obtained from  the original developer.  (Sorry, can't remember what it's called).

Yes, this solicitor was acting for me and the buyer.  This kind of fell together as I contacted you before to enquire whether it was necessary to have a solicitor when selling in Spain.  I understand what you have said about being fair for the solicitor to charge me for POA but, at the end of the day, my alleged buyer pulled out.  Whilst on the subject of charges ~ check this out.  My solicitor wanted to charge me the following ~

• 1500 + 600 for Notary and Land Registry fees
• 1200 solicitor fees

Are these costs right for sellng?  I thought a bit steep?        The agent emailed me confirming this 3000 eur deposit was in the bank's holding account.

For the record, apart for the POA at the Notary, I have never signed anything else.  There is definately a scam as I did argue with the solicitor that they had added the 1200 eur fees afterwards but he says they were discussed.  I just feel you can't trust anyone.  Incidently, are there any Costa Blanca agents out there that anyone recommends?  I will have to start a new thread I think.

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Kev, I feel for you because this seems to be a bit of a mess. But there are a couple of things I don't quite understand.

Firstly, did you not ask your lawyer before all this started, what his charges would be? I have absolutely no idea how he could possibly justify €1200 fees. I would ask him for a detailed description of the services he claims to have provided for this fee. The POA he is right to charge for - after all, it is still valid if you find another buyer.

Secondly, unless you signed an agreement to the contrary (you didn't?), the notary and land registry charges are (according to the law) for the buyer's account NOT YOURS! If you check back to when you bought (I know you kept all the paper work!) you will find you paid these charges then. The ONLY thing (apart from your lawyer's fee for the POA) you should pay as the seller, is PLUS VALIA, which is the tax on the gain in land value since you bought the property. Because you haven't owned it long, this will probably be a negligible amount. In fact, your lawyer will probably charge you more than the tax, just to go to the town hall to pay it!

The "certificate of habitancy", usually referred to as Licence of First Occupation, if need be, you could always get another copy of it, from the developer, or maybe the community administrator or your friendly president. Or even from the town hall planning dept. Don't worry about it - it's not your responsibilty to provide that when seling anyway. If the buyer wants it, he (or his lawyer) will obtain it, at their expense. Likewise the nota simple, which is a summarised version of the deed from the land registry showing any outstanding debts on the property if any. The only things you are likely to be required to provide are a certificate from the community to state all fees are paid up to date, and maybe a certificate from the town hall to show the rates (IBI) are paid up to date. Again, if you are not here to obtain these yourself, your representative will charge you for sending the gofer to the relevant offices to get them, but that could hardly amount to €1200!

I hope this is helping, and not depressing you too much.

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Kev    We sold a property about 4 years ago , the buyer took us to his Lawyer  to meet  him talk about the details of the sale / payment details,  both signed the contract  and arranged dates  we all went to the Notary  to sign over the deeds ,we produced our final payments for our property , the deed all done no problems , the buyers lawyer withheld the taxes we had to pay  ( only Plus Valia  & C. Gains ) at no time did we use a Lawyer for advise  as non needed really  but we were in Spain at the time, we asked for a copy of the sale / Copia  Simple that  was done at the Notary.   we had no charges /costs at any stage it sounds like they are trying to ripp  you off , but you will have to pay your Lawyer for setting up the POA , Roberto is the expert on this so this is our experience only of selling and  not  having  a Lawyer for  our sale.  Best of luck with this.   Rosi n

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Roberto, you are a fountain of information.  I am building a case against these people.  I have not signed anything as I've said.  Can you believe I had the list of fees on a scrap of paper.  I have demanded it on headed paper.  The problem started (or should I say, SCAM), when I first had the contact about the sale and the agent told me there was no need to have a solicitor as the buyer's mortgage co (bank) would sort it.  I would just have to have POA.  Things changed several times with reference to the buyer's finances and who the mortgage was with.  I happened to be holidaying at the time of the alleged completion date and handed my documents over to the solicitor asking for the list of the fees.  I had to chase this up every day after I had signed for POA.  Eventually, we sat down in a make shift office (I'm almost embarrased to say) in another estate agents, and discussed a load of fees on a scrap of paper.  I argued about these fees at the time, but you almost accept what is being told as we don't know any different at the time,  I.e notary charges and land registry etc.  Oh yes, and my 3% retention of the sale price also.  Didn't mention that... When I returned back to my apartment, I calculated that the figures didn't add up.  I emailed the following day from the UK as I had returned back early morning following  and said to the SOL that the figures didn't add up and then came the 1200 eur SOL's fees (that I can assure you) weren't discussed.)  As I had a sale pending, I felt my hands were tied and I kind of accepted to take a hit.

I obtained and paid the IBI and gave the SOL a copy of the receipt, The utilities are paid up as it's DD and I gave copies of the bills.  The community charges are paid up and again, they had a receipt.  I argued about the solicitor costs but they claimed them to be 50% split with the buyer.  The Plus Valia I was going to sort myself at the town AFTER the sale completion.

Is there a body I can start with in Spain as these people are evidently corrupt with their misdoings. 

Thanks again

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