Community charges - who pays the short fall

For any new Association I would have thought it's essential to ensure that there are some ethical guidelines laid out from the outset to keep control over corrupt elements, if you get my drift!

To carry the support and respect of the communities it's essential that Presidents are trusted.... you guys sound as though you could set a standard that could be replicated by others. It's a great opportunity to regain control of an unregulated and some might suggest an abused system.

 Those wishing to invest in Spain are far more likely to choose a community that was seen to be well regulated and "in control" of the finances and welfare of that community. It would act as a great incentive for others to meet and adhere to the standards/guidelines that you set.... a kite mark of sorts! (if my memory serves me well, this is what Faro was after many moons ago from the Spanish legal collegios, but that's another story!)

I am very grateful to all contributers to this thread.

The many points raised have helped to expand my understanding of the onus of responsibility on a President.
They are far more wide reaching than those of finance.

I am fast coming to the conclusion that what is required is a 'Child's Guide  to Community Presidency in Spain'
The whole subject is like a minefield littered with problems and pitfalls, most of which derive from a lack of professionalism and knowledge.
Is Eye on Spain the right place for such a guide?

In the world of the blind, the one Eye on Spain could be King

Today's problem for me relates to Fire Detection and Warning Systems, Emergency Lighting, Fire Extinguishers and Fire Hoses.

I was referred to an ex-pat who holds UK qualifications and wants to charge 40 to 60 Euros an hour but is not licenced or certificated under any Spanish requirements.
As I see it this does nothing to remove the Sword of Damacles over the head of a President.
Our administrator is unable to give me any answers until the middle of next week!

Who pays for the shortfall of inofrmation? - Tha President that's who!

Our systems have been neither checked, tested nor serviced since they were installed in 2005.

I have not been able to get any pointers as to:

1. EMERGENCY LIGHTING

1.1. Frequency of testing
1.2. Method of testing
1.3. Freqency of servicing
1.4. Records required

2.  FIRE EXTINGUISHERS

2.1. Frequency of testing
2.2. Method of testing
2.3. Freqency of servicing
2.4. Records required

3. FIRE DETECTION AND WARNING

3.1. Frequency of testing
3.2. Method of testing
3.3. Freqency of servicing
3.4. Records required

4. FIRE HOSES

4.1. Frequency of testing
4.2. Method of testing
4.3. Freqency of servicing
4.4. Records required

Hi,

At my blog ´piccavey´ here on eye on spain there are 2 articles about getting the community admin done online

This maybe of help in some cases and can reduce costs.

Rgds

Molly

Dai, you have my sympathy (of the "been there done that" type). I discovered this year (during my Nth reign as President) that lifts have a sort of MoT, but trying to find out the frequency, much less the requirements, was next to impossible. Add it to your list of things to find out. As for your current list, all I can tell you is that our (and I think most places') fire extinguishers are "serviced" (weighed to see if they've been used, and if not, put back in place with a new sticker with next years' date on) annually. Our exhaust extraction system and fire alarm in the underground garage went unnoticed for the first few years of our community's life too, (they weren't even activated) but are now included in the annual service by the same company. We don't have any fire hoses, and until I read your post it had never occurred to me (or anyone else, obviously) that the emergency lights on the stairs may need inspecting. Thanks for that - another job on my never-ending list. Would be nice if communities could pay for a professionally qualified person or organisation to advise them on such issues and ensure they are not overlooked - oh, that's right, we do, they're called Admistradores de Fincas

Latest rant about so-called professional administrators: I went with our administrator two weeks ago to open a new community account in a different bank because our current bank charges scandalous fees for every transaction. Simple enough, and I left it in his capable hands to arrange the transfer of funds from one to t'other, (still not done) and of course to notify all community members of the change. Today (two weeks on) I received an e-mail from our wonderful, university educated, professionally qualified administrator, copied to all members, notifying us of the new account details. With the wrong account number.

I would be ashamed to be a member of this "profession".

Just a thought for any President (or indeed any one who runs a club or whatever for non Spanish) and who lives in or around Marbella.

The Town Hall launched an initiative 2 or 3 months ago to promote a better understanding and relationship between expats and themselves.

The meetings are held in the conference centre (by the copper tower) on the first Thursday of each month. They are held in English and reported on in English and Spanish.

Here you can seek help and advice on any related subject (taxes, police, laws etc.). as well as listen to the problems of your fellows. If you live around Marbella it's well worth attending. It only takes a couple of hours a month of your time.

To get included on the email list to receive agendas and minutes drop an email to Oti Dpto. Extranjeros/Foreigners Department

extranjeros@marbella.es

In reply to Roberto yes I am sure most of us have problems and would like to have better administrators but the answer is in your hands ~ simply replace them. You are the President. If enough owners support you or respect your views why don't you shop around for a better one. Remember though the existing Administrator is appointed for a year and may well expect to be paid for the full term so timing and speed are important. Reappointment of the President and Administrator is a mandatory topic for your AGM which has to be voted on. Obviously do your homework and find an administrator you feel is more capable prior to doing this.

Regarding the term of an administrator, indeed they are elected for a 12 month period but a President can call an EGM at any time as can 25% of owners and the agenda can include a prosposal to dismiss the Administrator, if accepted by the majority the Administrator walks with no recompense.

Mazarron Country Club did exactly that after 4 months of the Administrators tenure and despite lots of bluster and threats the Administrator was no more and did not receive a single cent of recompense.... that was 2 years ago. It really beholds every President to read the HPL very carefully, do not rely upon the interpretation of the HPL as described by your Administrator and it really is not helpful to us all for individuals to make statements about HPL that are inaccurate..... see below Item 7..section 13 of the HPL.

7. The term of office for all governing bodies of the community shall be of one calendar year unless otherwise provided for by the community statutes.

The persons designated may be removed from their posts before the expiration of their term of office by a resolution of the general assembly, convened to hold an extraordinary session.

Barry

Hello Barry

Thanks for your correction however my wording was that the dismissed administrator "may well expect to be paid for the full term". not that he would be. It is not therefore a point covered in the HPL. It is a point that would be covered by Spanish law (of which the HPL is a very small section, and would depend on the circumstances I'm sure. Perhaps Maria can clarify. 

Hi dnicholson,

I have to disagree I'm afraid, HPL is the part of Spanish Law that decides the legal comings and goings of Community of Owners and it clearly gives the right to owners to dismiss all or some of it's elected governing bodies before the 12 month tenure is completed. It makes no distinction between paid or unpaid officers of that governing body and makes no decree of reason other than the wish of it's memevbers at a General Assembly.

Respectfully I suggest that the fact our kicking and screaming Administrator took no action other than bluster and threat is evidence enough that the HPL is written clearly in this respect and owners have charge of their own destiny.

Just one final point the Administrator is at the bottom of the list in HPL when it spells out the common make up of a governing body, a point we should never lose sight of and one that the Administrators continually try to gloss over.... in other words we should always keep them in their place as a servant of the Community and not the Manager of the Community, see below:

1. The governing bodies of the community shall be the following:

a) The owners’ general assembly.
b) The president and, where applicable, the vice presidents.
c) The secretary.
d) The administrator.

Regards

Barry

I agree with Fighter2.

We sacked our incompetent administrators half way through their 2nd year of office. They blustered & threatened to sue us but with the evidence of incompetence that we had, they wouldn't have stood a chance of getting a result in their favour.

You do have to make sure that you present a number of alternatives with their quotes to the EGM / AGM where the decision is to be made.

I also agree that the administrators should not be allowed to make the decisions. I am the president of our urbanisation & I have a very good relationship with our administrators. I am aware of their weaknesses but I am also very aware of their strengths through the support that they provide to me & the rest of the Board.

Noreen

I am sorry, I took my eye off the ball for a day or two.
I have been preparing to teach English to the person who handles our Community at our Administrators.
I am basing my lessons on the experiences at our Community.
In 30 years of teaching English as a foreign language I have never had quite such a challenge.

Our Community had difficulties with its first Adminstrator who was appointed by the Developer.

I had, as an Owner only, to employ my own interpreter and to stand up at an AGM  to read out a damning catalogue of shortcomings.
The Administrator was represented by his daughter who offered to resign before I had reached the end of the list.
The proposal to accept the resignation was accepted unanimously within less than a minute

The Profession appears to me to be monitored if not controlled by local Colleges.
I wonder if it would be possible to liaise with the College local to one's Community to try to get some sort of specific guidance.

I have to say that there are marked similarities between my experiences here in Spain and those dealing with a Managing Agent for a UK leasehold development as a Director of the Company owning the freehold.
Each leaseholder owned one share in the Company.
There is of course no specific Law to cover the situation in UK, only a very comprehensive (80 pages plus) Code of Practice drawn up by the Royal Institute of Chartered Surveyors.

We have always had a problem in that although the majority of our Community is not Spanish, there is still no requirement to produce all significant information in English or other language of each owner.
Something sticks in my mind from EU requirements from the Treaty of Rome days.
Any binding paperwork (Contract) should be in the language of the person being bound (Owner).
Did something like that transfer to the Treaty of Lisbon?
Unfortunately, I have had no trouble getting to sleep lately so I have not ready it all yet.

When we bought our property, the UK Goverment received delegations from Murcia Region trying to promote inward investment from Great Britain.
Several million Euros have been invested by British people in our village alone.
So the investment was all that was wanted was it?
What about a little reciprocal help with the problems so many of us are facing?

DaiO

dnicholson said: "In reply to Roberto yes I am sure most of us have problems and would like to have better administrators but the answer is in your hands ~ simply replace them. You are the President."

As the president, I personally interviewed 3 local administrators to find a replacement for our previous one, who helped himself to a substantial portion of our funds (under the watchful eye neglectful reign of the previous president) causing us untold cash flow problems - which I also personally, with no help from any other members, threatened, bullied and badgered him into finally returning, every cent of it. With the help of my (Spanish) vice-president, we chose our current encumbent as the lesser of the evils, and our choice was backed by a unanimous vote at an EGM. He has been so grossly incompetent at times that we've even considered going back to our old thieving b*****d! Yes, of course we could try another, and if no good, move on to the next, and the next....but all this is time consuming, the transition period from one to another is a nightmare (each blaming the other for any problems) which needs very careful supervision, and frankly, since almost nobody else is willing to lift a finger to help, I can't be ar5ed with it all over again. Sometimes you have to just make the best of a bad situation.

Barry, you raised a good point about the place of the administrator in the heirarchy. However, in my experience, rather than trying to "gloss over" this and act as though they rule the roost, adminsitrators tend to be all too keen to absolve themselves of any responsibility or accountability. If you give them an inch, they'll take a mile, and putting them in their place by telling them who's boss is just playing right into their lazy hands. Yes, the president has ultimate authority, and yes the administrator is a "servant" of the community - but it must be remembered that he is a paid servant with supposedly relevant qualifications and experience, whereas the president is a (usually reluctant) un-paid layman volunteer who in many cases has a real job of his own and simply does not have the time to deal with the daily nitty gritty of running a community. What the heck is the point of having a dog and barking yourself? Should I really have to check every piece of correspondence he sends out to corrrect his mistakes? What concerns me most, is the next president won't bother.

DaiO said: "So the investment was all that was wanted was it?"

Yes. We've 'ad yer money, now ****off.

The ultimate question is

'Where does the buck stop?'

The answer knowing my luck is fairly and squarely at my door.

So the only answer would appear to be,

'Yes, check each and every document and transaction yourself.'

Even if only for the purpose of self preservation.

DaiO

Yes, I tend to agree, but one has to ask oneself - why am I looking after everyone else's interests, with no thanks, only the interminable suggestions when they deign to appear on the premises for a weekend or so, of what "we" should do etc. etc. to make the place even nicer for them when they choose to use the place? Just for a while, to see what it feels like, I'd like to be like them, pay my dues (which I do anyway), close my door and enjoy my hard earned home without worry. Is it really too much to ask that the administrator can be trusted to know which bank account belongs to which of his clients? How hard can it be?

A President's lot is not a happy one.

Is it time to start a new thread dedicated to helping Presidents to understand the HPL, what the pitfalls are and how to avoid them and how to direct Administrators?

The problems seem to be of a similar nature regardless of which region a Community is in or its size.
Could it be that the courses attended by trainee Administrators actually teach them how make the most of a bad job?
If not, then how come the stories all seem so very familiar?
It is difficult to believe that there is no nationwide collusion.

There ought to be an EU Human Right not to be ripped off by professionals.
Who needs conmen, why not just leave it to the professionals?

DaiO.

Accountability, transparency, efficiency, ethical standards, guidelines, all actions that are sadly lacking except for the chosen few who have made it their business to comprehend existing HPL laws. Hence the need for some form of kite mark to be established and standardised across communities via a respected organisation, no? It would save time and assist the learning process in the longer run if communities could have a common focal point wouldn't it?

What better way to establish an incentive for communities to aspire to, than to stamp your mark from the outset with a credible and trusted organisation that understands the law, provides some form of respected accreditation for those who meet recognised standards, and thereby monitors and meets the overall needs of all communities?

Mighty oaks from little acorns grow.........

Sorry for the gap however I did wish to make sure of my facts before replying to Barry (Fighter2) and Noreen ( nfm2862) who on 25 Jan questioned a statement that I made regarding the legal obligation to pay administrators the full term of their contract and therefore it would be better to sack them at the AGM (or not reappoint them) rather than mid term. Both disagreed on personal experience and Barry emphasised by quoting the Horizontal Law and stating that my post was unhelpfull being inaccurate.

I also have experience of sacking an unhelpful administrator by calling an EGM and simply sacking him. He did not come back with any claim whatsoever so I can understand why Barry and Noreen think as they do.

The fact is, as I stated earlier, The Horizontal Laws are an excellent guide but do not take precedence over the laws in Spain (Codigo Civil) and I would suggest to Barry that they are not the bible he considers them to be. The "contract", for that is what it is, between the community and the administrator is covered by the civil code No 1,256. (You can google if you wish)

However do not let that put you off sacking a poor administrator ~ just be aware it may cost you.

I also have a desperate need to get some feed back from communities who have had natural gas installed however I will start another thread on this subject.

If you would like a copy of the civil codes in English then click here:

https://docs.google.com/open?id=0B22PXPgzL-pFZDZiZTMzZGEtOWI3ZC00OTM0LTgzNjItZDk5NDI1YzI0MWIw

Regards