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The petition that I put on the web, and can be seen here, at http://www.gopetition.com/petitions/spanishbankguarantees.html started in November 2008 and was closed and sent on 9 February 2009. It had gained 229 signatures in 3 months. It dealt with one issue and one issue only – the refusal to honour the Bank Guarantees given by banks to those purchasing off-plan properties. It was very specific and was aimed at the Governor of the Bank of Spain - and no one else - as he had just announced to the press what his powers were and his willingness to sanction those banks who were not obeying Banking Law in the execution of BGs they had underwritten. The petition was designed to hold him to his word.
The petition was advertised on this and the SPI website but I did get press coverage both in the UK and in Spain and support from my MEPs. The petition was a success in that it gathered names and limited information quite quickly. It was a failure in that it proved to be water off a duck’s (the Governor’s) back. He remained unmoved.
Suzanne’s petition http://www.spanishpropertyscandalpetition.co.uk is huge and very different. Begun in May 2007, she has collected well over 1000 signatures to date, together with as much data as petitioners wished to give, and it is still open to sign. Suzanne has worked her socks off, advertised it all over the UK press, has sent it to many (allegedly) people-in-power who very quickly deny that fact (what do we put them there for?) and to Heads of government in both the UK, Spain and the EEC. She has even spoken in the Brussels Parliament about it. One person can’t do more than Suzanne has in terms of care and energy, effort and will.
Keith’s petition, http://www.bankguaranteesinspain.com/ again, is specifically concerned with Bank Guarantees but covers all the problems encountered with them, not just the non-honouring of them. Written in both English and Spanish, it is worded in order to gain the maximum detail that can be used in legal argument. This I understand will be presented in the near future to a whole range of people in positions of power whose names can be found on the front of the petition.
I don’t know what conclusions can be drawn from any of this. AVAAZ and Amnesty International use petitions and letter writing as very successful campaign methods but they deal with Life-and-Death situations or are very politically focussed. We, on the other hand, seem to be viewed as members of the Foolish-Little-People-whose-voices-are-not-worth-listening-to. We are also British. Our petitions are not recruiting enough Spanish voices. We have to ask ourselves why this is and what we can do about it.
The Spanish hatred of banks is made very clear in the two You-tube clips I highlighted on this thread just the other day. Those demos really appeal. Participants certainly make a lot of noise. I am reminded of Wout’s campaign to get his money back which he wrote about a couple of years ago on this website. He went to the bank accompanied only by his agent and his lawyer and, brandishing his BG, proceeded to make a very loud fuss in the bank whereupon the embarrassed bank officials paid up. Maybe it’s just noise that is needed.
It is concerned with the words of prominent lawyers and judges who are speaking out about the awfulness of the Spanish Justice System. It would seem that judges, once retired, feel freer to talk about how bad it is. Their names are given in the article. So Maria, you are not alone. It seemed to me to be encouraging and maybe those guys (male and female) might offer some help if approached. But only one person responded on the Forum so maybe that’s not an avenue to take.
I know that I’m repeating myself, but it would really help if an organisation were to be formed. In the UK, to act as an informal not-for-profit group, three people are needed to take on the roles of chair, secretary and treasurer. The group would need a written constitution. This could be in the form of a single sentence to begin with – a kind of mission statement. A joining fee would be decided upon and monies collected to pay for advertising, leaflets, etc (don’t you love those ‘stickies’ on youtube?). A high-profile spokesperson would be a distinct advantage but such a person is hard to come by – I know, I’ve tried. Forget footballers and ‘personalities’. Someone who is respected, has a head on their shoulders and is prepared to put their back and reputation into it is what is required. A good lawyer would be helpful. Many organisations have been formed by unknowns who have become household names through the activities of the organisation. I think that’s the way we have to go.
And yes, you do have to get an OK from the police to protest. You have to get permission to stand with a collection can for ‘blind dogs’ or any other worthy cause too. You can’t legally protest in the street about anything without permission. There’s nothing to stop an illegal protest except the fear of arrest and charges brought (think suffragettes) but you would get media coverage, a few bruises and maybe some very uncomfortable days afterwards.
I think if it were possible to arrange a meeting with the Spanish Housing Minister at which a statement from the ‘Organisation’ could be presented it would probably be the best we can do under the circumstances.
One thing to remember in campaigning is that people are put off by words. Too many and they remain unread. However, if there were an organisation with a website in existence, leaflets can be printed with just one biting sentence plus the name of the org., the website and contact details printed on them. Ten different sentences – ten different leaflets - ten different colours. I don’t know what the rule is for leafleting windscreen wipers but I bet there’s one against it. I don’t know the cost of blanket mailings – and God knows we get enough of those through the door.
One more word of advice - any group actively campaigning should make sure there are cameras there – whether they’re camera phones or press photographers. Getting a picture is very telling.
Enough already. I’m going to stop.
ruth
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A comprehensive post Ruth, that I'm still digesting. In the meantime, some comments from MEPs that make me wonder how much more effort is going to be needed to get any further. I truly despair...
Marta Andreasen (UK Independence Party); The case brought here by Mr Bell is yet one more case where British citizens are unable to enjoy the right to use their houses that they have legally or thought they have legally acquired in Spain. The answer given by the Spanish authorities is that in the first case, where it refers to the hydrological plan, there has been a breach of the regulation and this has now been analysed and penalised properly by the EC. However this does not bring any solution for the people trying to live in those houses. Is it reasonable and legal for the European Union to continue to fund regions in Europe where such violation are taking place?
Roger Helmer (UK conservative party): Thank you Mr Chairman. I have been a member of this house for 11 and a half years and for the whole of that 11 and a half years I have been receiving letters from many people who have suffered exactly the same problem as the petitioner, in that they have purchased houses in good faith with legal advice, with proper contracts and then they find that they are thrown out of their house on some completely unimaginable pretext. We have discussed this issue many times in this committee and we are making no progress.
Margarete Auken (Socialist People’s Party – Denmark):We have discussed this many, many times and nothing has really happened, this is one of the problems.
Gordon had the last word and said," I am disappointed that this body thinks that it does not have the competence to require that a long-serving, very heavily funded member state should comply with fundamental human rights."
The result is that the petition has not been shelved but is being kept open waiting for a response from Valencia on what it is doing with the General Plan application for Hondon de los Frailes and a response from the Commission itself as to what is happening regarding infringement procedures against Spain with respect to the Water Framework Directive.
http://www.coastrider.net/news/local-news/11429-objections-to-hondon-de-los-frailes-plan-taken-to-european-parliament
This message was last edited by Suzie on 04/03/2011.
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Suzie
me too, I just don't think anyone who could help us gives a stuff at the moment, or can be bothered to try and change what is clearly a unjust system. We just have to find somone who does though I think, before we can move forward?.
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For once, Goodstitch, I disagree with you. We don’t need a Saviour, we need an ORGANISATION – people who have come together with a common cause to form an official group with officers and a constitution/mission statement. See my previous post.
An organisation can request permission to demonstrate.
An organisation can request hearings with Government officials.
An organisation could request a meeting with the Spanish Housing Minister in April whenever and wherever.
Sure, an individual can try all of the above but …
An organisation has clout that an individual can never possess.
An organisation is more likely to be heard.
An organisation is more likely to be liaised with.
An individual can be brushed aside or ignored very easily. An organisation can’t.
If you doubt me, just look into our history and that of other countries. The lessons are there.
ruth
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ruth
that sounds good, but can we really fight the Spanish government and the EU with the numbers of people (how many answered the call for a demo'?) and funding required?
I'm sorry if I sound negative, but the situation of many of us is so clearly wrong that the evidence put forward already and of course the input from Marta Andreason surely should have at least changed opinion on the justice system if anyone was prepared to listen?.
I still think we have to carry on doing what we can of course, but perhaps only a very good lawyer or better still a very good group of lawyers on our side to represent all the current evidence would be listened too and be able to make a strong enough case to force change in the law, or at least bring someone in the Spanish government or EU on board with us?, but who will fund that?
Don't get me wrong, I'm full of admiration for anyone fighting for justice, I just can't see a way forward at the moment without those in power even accepting we have been treated so badly?
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I recently offered to print banners. I think you should go ahead have this done asap as it's no good leaving until the last minute and find that for some reason I'm unable to help. What I need is for someone to send me the artwork of what you want printed. An Adobe Illustrator file (AI) or PDF would be ideal - they'll only be tiny files. Normally "demo" banners are about 2000mm x 750mm with pockets at each end that you slip a pole into to carry it.. My advice would be to keep the message simply and punchy. You don't want more than a few words on each banner. If whoever is doing the a/w will send them to me as a pm with an address in Uk for them to be delivered. If you want any for Spain I'll print them on the house but someone needs to bring them over from UK for you.
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GutT
I'm happy to have a go at some artwork when we decide what we want on the banner?. I can use what ever font we want and export to an ai file from Corel Draw. You can scale it then I assume to the size required?
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GuyT - this is the type of professional help we need and is an incredibly generous offer.
But you don't know anyone in the rent-a-crowd business do you?
The starting point has to be the petition holders to contact those that signed and see if we can get some numbers but we need somewhere for these people to sign up or register and say where/when they would be available and I'm not sure a forum thread is the answer.
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Faro,is right on. A dedicated website is needed
There must be those skills here on this forum? Have i read somewhere ther are "tricks'' to get a web address up the google ranking?
I would guess somewhere to register an email address and commit to a few pounds/euros for small running expenses
But the main thing would be to commit to being somewhere on a given date
I also think one must decide which specific issue is to be lobbyed? Bank Guarentee. no Guarentee, pre legal action, post judgements
Trying to cover to much could weaken the arguement
As i'm not directly affected please accept i'm not trying to muscle in or anything, but just offer constructive ( i hope) and physical support
Little acorns..................
PS; A banner strip line that reads well in English and Spanish would cover two bases
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Guy and guys
I do understand your frustrations but …
… police permission is needed before a demonstration can take place.
So I’m putting these questions.
How many of us are prepared to demonstrate illegally? And suffer the consequences?
What is the point of demonstrating illegally? Protestors wiil be viewed as a nuisance – a bunch of disgruntled troublemakers – and will not be taken seriously by anyone – prospective buyers, politicians or developers. And they’ll be bundled away by police to boot.
Looking at it practically, a demo takes time to organise, and group participation in the organising of it.
It gives a very clear account of how to organise a small successful demo.
Who of us is going to apply for the permissions for a legal demo?
On whose behalf?
I’m frustrated, too. My fear is that what’s intended cannot be achieved in time. Do we know the Minister’s schedule? Is she the main target? Or are the exhibitors at the Property exhibition the targets? Or the visitors? We (well, I) don’t have the date, the time or the place where a demo would be the most effective. Does anyone else?
There is so much to think about and plan when demonstrating. Please guys, just let’s get our heads together first – and do first things first. Don’t get me wrong. The offers to help are terrific and much appreciated. They encourage – and that’s what’s needed. We old-timers with 8 years of individual protest under our belts could do with more of it.
Through my recent postings I think I’ve said my piece now and I won’t comment further. However I would that there was more discussion about all of this. The subject requires a good airing and as widely as possible.
ruth
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If this helps: application forms to Met Police for static demos and processions in London
ruth
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To all,
Suzie hit the nail on the head with her summary
“The issue is not a problem with the Law but the implementation of it. “
In my humble opinion we all need to focus on highlighting, to politicians and consumers alike, the impact that non- implementation of law in Spain is wreaking upon its consumers, no matter what the legal circumstance, and make it clear that so long as this abusive and manipulative practice continues on the part of the Spanish government then the message should be loud and clear
BUYER BEWARE IN SPAIN-
NON IMPLEMENTATION OF LAW = NO CONSUMER PROTECTION.
NO CONSUMER PROTECTION = NO SAFE PURCHASE IN SPAIN.
I suggest there’s a banner heading to forewarn any potential purchaser, if one were needed!
Ruth & Suzie
I think you make some wonderful points but I fear you underestimate our ability to use AVAAZ in this regard - see recent example
http://www.avaaz.org/en/spain_clean_up_politics/?cl=968802424&v=8490
Anyway, for what it’s worth here’s my “airing”!
I personally feel that there is far more to be gained by the immediate impact from this form of respected mass petitioning than a few demos that are hard to organise, especially within a short timeframe.
Should we not be ploughing our energies and first hand experience into formulating an educational document highlighting the devastating impact of the Spanish Government’s apparent disregard of consumer rights as per existing laws, together with the everyday realities that Faro and others have highlighted? (One prime example being Elena Salgado the Finance Minister criticising judges for decisions in favour of the consumer or borrower. This being an obvious statement corroborating what many fear, i.e. state protectionism at the expense of an independent justice system).
Having formulated such a document between us all, could we not then request that AVAAZ take up our cause in order to authenticate our legitimate and widespread concerns relating to the lack of Justice in Spain and the subsequent lack of European Parliament’s commitment to protect its consumers against such ongoing abusive practices within one of its member states?
With one mass petition via AVAAZ, well defined and supported by all consumers (Spanish and Foreign nationals alike) the EU would surely have to respond wouldn't they, or face the consequence of organised consumer unrest........
Just another alternative option to consider.
This message was last edited by ads on 06/03/2011.
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Hi,
Just for the information of those who care.............according to the reports on the Earls Court Show on the 11th, 12th, and 13th of March, there was a high degree of interest regarding enquiries about Spanish property. The full report is in SUR in English today, and apparently at the Spanish seminars it was standing room only !
It also mentions something interesting as per below.............
"A protest outside Earls Court on Saturday, drawing attention to dubious land ownership practices in Cyprus, would certainly have been noticed by anyone considering buying property there, and a seminar offering information about Cyprus had to be cancelled on Sunday due to lack of interest"........so at least the people who are involved with Cyprus Property "wrong doings" are willing to do what we were NOT ? ?
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I’ve just heard back from Andrew Kinsman after I asked him for copies of communications between the president of the EU parliament and Mr Zapatero.
Apparently, according to Andrew Kinsman, the President of the EU Parliament Jerzy Buzek himself wrote to Señor Zapatero in February last year, politely asking for any response to the Auken Report. He received an extremely bland reply which entirely avoided the issues raised by the report, and Mr Kinsman suggested “As you can see, it is a masterpiece of saying very little. “.
Copies follow:
(translated by Andrew Kinsman, Marta’s parliamentary assistant)
Dear President
At the end of the past legislature the European Parliament approved the Auken Report on town planning in Spain, which demanded some sort of response from the Spanish authorities on the matters reported.
The issue was again raised before the Plenary at Strasbourg on 18th last (i.e. 18/1/2010) by the Rapporteure, Margrete Auken, and also at the debate on the Spanish presidency on the 19th.
Within the healthy institutional co-operation between the Spanish Government and this parliament, let me inform it that if the report is cause for any kind of response in its part, it would be an honour for me to present it to this Chamber.
Yours sincerely,
Jerzy Buzek.
______________________________________________________________________
Dear President,
I would like to thank you for your letter of 5th February 2010 concerning the Auken Report, approved by the European Parliament, which refers to the impact of excessive urbanisation in Spain on the individual rights of the European citizens, the e nvironment and the application of Community law.
The Spanish Government, through the Ministry of Housing, examined the aforementioned report with utmost interest, in order to identify those aspects which could contribute to solving the excesses which occurred in the past and to take necessary measures in order to avoid them happening again in the future.
Independently of the overall detailed assessment of its content, which is carried out by the Ministry of Housing, I would like to inform you that we are fully aware of the imbalances of the past growth cycle of the Spanish economy and, in particular, of the disordered growth of the residential building sector, an aspect which is not exclusive to our country, but which had a particullar impact on Spain and it represents the main reason for the high unemployment rate that we are confronted with.
For this reason, the government has intensified the work which it already started several years ago in order to lay the foundations of a sustainable balanced economic growth respectful of the environment. It is, as you know, a goal which we share with all Member States and with the European Institutions and for which we need to keep working together for an increased efficiency for the benefit of the citizens.
In any case, we reiterate our particular sensitivity towards the issues raised in the Report and it is the intention of this Government to keep addressing them in the most effective manner.
I avail myself of this opportunity to express to you the assurance of my highest consideration and personal esteem.
Jose Luis Rodriguez Zapatero
President of the Government of Spain
.
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Belucky,
Do you know the dates/whereabouts of other upcoming exhibitions?
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ads
yes, the reply from Mr Zapareo is what we have come to expect sadly. I'ts not really accepting anything apart from over building, and even then it tries to say that other countries are almost as bad, ....ah well, that's alright then!
This part of his reply is almost unbelievable ''we reiterate our particular sensitivity towards the issues raised in the Report and it is the intention of this Government to keep addressing them in the most effective manner''
''to keep addressing them'' ?........ when did they ever start???? 
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Goodstich, it's not sensitivity but action in the form of implementing judgements on case wins and stopping the nonsense afflicting Spain between regional and local governments that is required now. Accountability at all levels via a fair workable independent system of justice is key to all of this. So long as there is no accountability in Spain, then the message has to be a resounding BUYER BEWARE.
Anything else will be perceived as yet more delaying tactics and pure rhetoric on the Government's behalf.
Without an effective system of Justice in place they have little hope of solving their real estate problems and corruption. A room full of potential purchasers at an exhibition is hardly a turning point to address the Spanish real estate nightmare is it? Everyone within the real estate industry should be routing for these ongoing injustices to be swiftly resolved via a credible system of justice. No-one should be under the illusion that justice ends at the point of a case win. It ends at the point of actual recompense as per legal judgements, or as in the case of the Priors and other innocents like them, at the point of compensation.
Then and only then will we be able to say that potential purchasers have the required consumer protection in place.
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Hi ads,
Sorry but I have no idea of any new dates or locations. I can only request that other members take note of any advertisments etc. especially those people living in and around London, where these events usually occur.
Why do you ask ? Have you got a secret stash of volunteers, that never surfaced last month ?
This message was last edited by belucky358 on 18/03/2011.
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No secret stash! The only reason I ask is for people to be kept informed well in advance. It would be interesting to know if any demonstrators re Cyprus were asked to move on or gained permission from the police!
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As outsiders, the only way we will find out if the Police were involved in any way, is to rely on our Londoner friends, who may have read about it in their "local" newspapers, or if the local TV had a report on the event.
If anyone can tell me which Police Station covers the Earls Court area, I will ring them and ascertain their involvement.
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