Daily Mail Scaremongering?

Norman... I do not understand yor question about my father, but all the patience and good sense of humour I can have I will not let you go into naming any of my relatives for I do not know what sake.

Please explain to me what you meant.

Hi Maria,

sorry, perhaps our understanding of my language is not complete.

I was merely pondering on your father's view as a grandfather of your lovely daughter.

I have a family saying that "one can say no to one's wife, it is more difficult to do so with one's daughter, but impossible with one's grandaughter."

But that of course is just me.

All families are not the same but the point was that to make a new life anywhere one has to leave one's old life largely behind including close family. That is what the people in the article and all ex-pats do.

Hope that explains it.

Regards

Norman

It is not of good taste in my language/country  to use others´ families as examples or comparisons.

I accept your apologies on this.

Next?

I dont think this is a scare mongering article, I think it just makes it clear that moving abroad to 'live the dream' is a thing of the past.. I think it just states the bare facts of life as it has turned out for some people. Often there is an element of a suggestion that people have been foolish to make the leap of faith to move abroad and then when it doesnt work out or circumstances change the media and even their friends take a 'could have told you so' attitude.

You are a long time dead......so trying to 'live your dream' is not a failing. However, it is important to think things through thoroughly and to be fully aware of the difference living abroad can mean when we all get that bit older and maybe ill, infirm or alone. The lady now widowed and desparate to return to the UK states that you 'don't get anything free here' when commenting on the lack of government support and the fact she has only her pension to survive on. Thats very true and shouldnt be different as Spain doesnt have the system we have in the Uk, but its definately something this couple should have been considering when they made their move. But, the crash in the property market has been far more major than anyone would have anticipated.

Of course its a huge pity when things go wrong for anyone or when they want to change their life again and can't because of outside forces. I'm not altogether certain returning to the Uk is as good as they expect it to be- unless they believe there's a job waing for them or because they can get benefits not available in Spain. As the benefit system is under review in the UK I'm not sure how reliable that belief is.

I feel mostly sorry for the couple who had hoped to make a new life and the the husband had a reliable and profitable trade. The crash of the construction industry has wrecked their hopes and dreams. Its only by selling at a huge loss that they can maybe start again elsewhere and thats if their property is well located and has no issues or problems to put a buyer off.

With my ex father in law I have bought a Polaris property and he also purchased another property with his wife.. He was very knoweldgeable and experienced about foriegn property purchases but even he fell into the trap of believing the boom couldnt end. He envisaged several family members buying a few different style properties spread across the resort and basing one couple on the resort to establish a 'golfing break' company. I was very doubtful and had to be persuaded to go ahead because rumours and concerns about this company and generally about property sales were beginning to surface. But, I did go ahead- however other family members had to walk away from their inital deposits or just decided not to go ahead and put down that deposit. The arrangement caused me no end of angst and for a time a second job had to be found. However, I like the resort and funniily enough a couple of these relatives are now looking again at purchasing- at 50% less than their original input! But our little dream foundered.

What I am hearing and seeing is that people are buying and returning to the market, albeit slowly and it is only properties that are genuine bargains that are going through to a full sale. Generally it is people who have cash to spend and are not really following that 'dream', they are making practical decisions based on a return some years down the line or for getting into the rental market.

There's been a lot of coverage for Murcia regarding the proposed Paramount Theme Park and although the land deal has been agreed investment is still being sought. In the past a huge ground swell of new off plan properties would already be on the drawing board and land would be being snapped up all over the region- so far nothing. If Daily Mail is right with their figures then thats a lot of unsold properties for regional govenments and the Banks to want out of the way before they approve any further property development loans. Until that back log is cleared I dont see much progress because any development that does get approval will be small in comparison to years several ago and will have limited impact on jobs and local economy.

Dear Maria,

thank you for that.

I am not sure that I fully understand as we have been lead to believe that perhaps the Spanish have a stronger family relationship than we Brits and we have all taken pleasure at your daughter's arrival and photo.

However my feelings are of little concern as long as you are happy that no slight was intended.

Practically your solution might work for someone who was not desperate to get back to her family or perhaps even some other family members might join her to spread the load.

We never ever seem to get the full facts to comment on.

The previous post has spelt things out, is informative and welcome.

I wonder how Peter's battle is progressing?

Regards

Norman

Dear Norman:

Do not worry. I have learnt to understand you a bit more now and it is good that we solve our misunderstandings through dialogue.

Have a great day!

Best wishes,

Maria

Glad you understand him, Maria - I haven't got the faintest idea what he's on about.

I still find it hard to see why we should feel sorry for the first lady in the article. Even allowing for the fact that they spent something ridiculous like 800,000 euros (at 2004 ex-rates) on their property, they would have still had another 700,000 to live on. Where has that gone? In seven years? OK, nobody saw the crash coming, but if they had lived off the (not unsubstantial) interest that they could have earned, she could just lock up the property in Spain now, and return to the UK with virtually the same amount in sterling. A fool and his money......to make a small fortune, start with a large one.......

OK, nothing can ever compensate for the sad loss of a partner, but good grief, if I had ever had1.5 million euros in the bank, I would not have the audacity to moan when I blew it.

The woman in the article is alone in a whopping great house, can't sell it and can't afford to pay the bills.

So the solution is obvious - rent part of it out to a young Spanish couple who can't afford to get on the housing ladder.  That would resolve her both her loneliness and her cash shortage.  She would have a whole new family to feel involved with - it could be a very rewarding mutual arrangement!

I do find it hard to believe  that anyone can blow that amount of cash and not keep some by for a rainy day though. 

Hadn't really taken in what sort of money we were talking about for the widowed lady- however they bought that property for 550000 euro's and totally did it up- so a few bob spent there.Then they have 'lived the life' no doubt, meals out, entertaining, enjoying themselves- and why not? This property was probably going to be an investment for their later 2nd retirement and I imagine they had always lived to a high standard- makes the fall even harder. Then tragedy struck. Its only the scale of the figures that are different but this is what has happened to a huge percentage of the British ex-pats.

The house share sounds a possible except that I dont think this lady speaks to a soul and like many Brits abroad is not integrated into the community at all therefore wouldnt dream of having stangers sharing her home.

When you consider that 20% of Spanish are unemployed  there's along way to go before this mess even begins to get sorted. Even at rock bottom prices the Spanish can't afford to buy off this glut iof properties; other EU individuals may buy up a percentage cheap but I dont see a turnaround for many many years. Even building theme parks (Murcia)and Las Vegas style gambling strips(Barcelona) isnt going to pull the country out of the mire I read that on the BBC last weekend they were saying that Spain's situation isnt as bad as was feared and there are fewer concerns that Spain will follow Ireland. Not sure where they get their info from because it doesnt sound the same as the Daily Mails info. Even though I dont think articles like this Daily Mail article are scaremongering I dont think they are confidence builders either.

Anyway, forgive my low mood I'm off work with a virus and trawling these forums certainly isnt helping to give me a boost!

Following on from Norman's comments - yes, I think I DO understand where you are coming from: ie the relationship between parents/children/grandchildren and the joys that they all bring in their different ways. But it's not all about living the dream - what about your own sanity and peace of mind?

Before you fly off at me, please let me explain what I mean. I am due to retire in six month's time. I have spent 45 years driving lorries all over Britain, the last 22 for a Government department. I have a small pension from a previous employment; added to my state pension, plus my Civil Service pension, we will not be 'hard up', but neither will we be in any way wealthy. Realistically, there is no way we could live as comfortable a retirement in the UK as we will in Spain. I know that many will say that Spain is not cheap any more, and to a certain extent this may well be true, but I am referring to the difference in things like council tax and suma (£2200pa against 228euros Suma plus 480euros community): water (£250/150euros): I have paid anything up to £7 to park the car in Derby or Nottingham - I can't remember the last time I paid to park in Spain (I tell a lie -  I paid 60cents to park for a while at Murcia airport!) Even things as daft as the price of a cauliflower or fresh fruit and veg at the local market in Almoradi. Surely we cannot be the only omes who wake up on the first morning of each visit to our house feeling that the weight of the world has been lifted from our shoulders? The whole way of life is sooo much better - sooo much more laid back.

Yes, of course we will miss the tribe - we have five children and eight grandchildren. Our youngest grandson lives with us, together with our daughter and her partner - they will be taking over this house when we finally move next year, but already most of the young ones have annoumced that they "will be spending school hols at Grannie and Grampie's place" and the parents have already booked visiting dated for 2012 and 2013! Also, we intend to return to the uk for an extended break at least once a year to spend time with all of them. (The wedding is in July - going to be another costly do, but so long as it is a day to remember, what the heck?)

Sorry if you are upset by my views, Norman, but isn't life what you make it, and make of it?

Ramble over!

Steve.

Well said, Steve!

Sometimes parents move house (either in the same country or to a different one) but more frequently children move away.  That's life. 

When my children were very  young, my mother moved from Lincolnshire (where we all lived at the time) to the northeast, with my two brothers (thus robbing me of a good babysitter!).  Years later my ex-husband and I moved up north too, however the work situation there wasn't good, and our children were growing up, so we decided to move south again, this time  to Hertfordshire.  My two brothers grew up in the northeast, married, and years later they moved south too, to Somerset and Devon.  We all tried to visit Mum on a regular basis and occasionally she visited us.

My children now live in London, as do John's children, however the two of us decided to move to Spain.  I do miss my children, but we try to go back to see them at least once a year and my two daughters are visiting me in April, though at different times.  Hopefully my son and his girlfriend will visit us later in the year.  I can't wait!

My surviving brother (sadly my youngest brother died just before his 50th birthday) has just moved to Germany.  One thing I did learn from my brother's death is that you only have one life so make the most of it.

John and I have a good lifestyle here, and the quality of our life is far better than it would have been if we had stayed in London.

We are both lucky to have wonderful children, who are happy that we are living our dream, and especially happy to be able to visit us over here!

Sue

Dear All,

well said of course, it is rather like those that we met on cruise once, very enjoyable but of limited appeal to us.

others seemed to have formed a club of "cruisers".................see you on the next trip etc. they explained that they were "skiers"........spending the kids inheritance.

we could not imagine joining them no more than we can imagine leaving the family to become ex-pats.

we only wanted to own part of a total holiday complex with every facility for that purpose, no more.

I rather think that all families are not as close as others and bear the seperation better and of course children outgrow you to some extent.

All very understandable and some move for health reasons............a couple of friends lived in Benidorm for many years where she was an "athlete" but in the UK a cripple into old age.

The lady who now features on the forum blog has a life not fully revealed in any detail, perhaps she was not herself the main spender?

there is much we don't know though they did need a country property for horses which are themselves a "bottomless money pit".

possibly some of the money may have gone on assisting young family to visit them etc.

but if you must speculate on the couples untold finances and your mind is narrow enough, why not give them a good lambasting, that is so much more helpful than sympathy for your egos.

It wont make a jot of difference, either way.............as long as your back is covered, what do you care.

What a miserable reaction.

Regards

Norman

many people come to spain buy and only stay a few years and then for one reason or another decide to return to UK/Ireland - ill health, death of one partner, family etc

Even in the good days that was a problem as Spain has both high acquisition and dosposal costs - say 20% + capital gains tax

and anyone who bought in the last 5+ years is sitting on a big loss and some are still not willing to accept that loss and take the offer on the table!

Many with mortgages are trapped unless they hand back the keys or do a runner ........ these are very sad cases.

Quote: "The house share sounds a possible except that I dont think this lady speaks to a soul and like many Brits abroad is not integrated into the community at all therefore wouldnt dream of having stangers sharing her home."

That hits the nail right on the head.

If people don´t make an effort to at least get to know their neighbours, no wonder they feel isolated.  But it´s never too late to start!

Dear All,

if this forum is any more than just hot air and there are any nice people among you escapees, why not approach the lady with your genuine concerns?

perhaps even some house and cost sharing would be possible, even desirable.........mutual benefit in fact.

one thing is for sure she is not alone in her difficulties.

why not band together as we victims are trying to do.

perhaps you could even start your own BIG SOCIETY.

wouldn't that be good????

go to it folks.

PLEASE NO SPECULATORS LOOKING FOR THEIR SECOND MILLION OR TWO

Regards

Norman

It is hard to intgrate as Spanish people do not invite outsiders to their houses and it is mostly only family - now that can be extended family or family of inlaws etc but never outsiders.

Spanish families tend to remain very close. At Christmas and New Year it is family only. They go on holidays together. They are forever around each other houses.

Before this woman might have gone places with her husband but much more difficult to go places alone hence why she probably wishes to return to her family in UK

 What about the learning of the language? That would make a big difference!

I don't think it would make a great difference as Spanish people do not tend to invite strangers to their house. They don't say oh pop around for dinner tonight.

I think learning the language is the most imnportant thing to do especially if you decide to become a resident or regular visitor. You dont have to get to the point of being fluent enough to take part in debates- just to get by and be polite.

I wasn't being super critical when I commented that maybe this lady hasn't integrated- it's quite natural to mix with what is familiar and I imagine the  lady and her husband stayed within a friendship group.  Maybe they were of an age that didnt see the need to integrate provided they had company regularly. Where are those friends now?

I was going to suggest long term rental at a ridiculously low monthly amount might have least released her to travel back to the UK and kept the property maintained. But, it sounds a substantial property and you do have to pay a letting agency to manage things like that for you.

I also doubt if this lady wants people to contact her- she just wants to go back to the UK, like so many. But, the grass isnt always greener.

Faro: How can we invite you for dinner if we cannot talk?