Libya: What lousy timing

Poor timing: This is the month in which the EU begins to switch its gas dependency from Russia’s South Stream pipeline to Medgaz. This largely Spanish financed consortium has a 784km pipeline running from Algeria’s gas fields under the Mediterranean to Spanish shores.

....but the alternative could be to sit by and watch another Rwanda develop? 

He had 41 years to do it and showed precious little inclination to do so. Libya has in fact been a very stable nation for all those years, and better off than it was when under British (and American) rule. When I was there 51 years ago the armed forces of the US and Britain were everywhere. So was poverty and a distinct lack of democracy.

One can expect this overblown rhetoric as the West seeks to justify the unjustifiable. Like Saddam, Gaddafi is demanding prices on oil and gas that the West finds unacceptable. They are set on stealing it. When was it ever otherwise? Do we ever learn?

"Next the statesmen will invent cheap lies, putting the blame upon the nation that is attacked, and every man will be glad of those conscience-soothing falsities, and will diligently study them, and refuse to examine any refutations of them; and thus he will by and by convince himself that the war is just, and will thank God for the better sleep he enjoys after this process of grotesque self-deception." : Mark Twain. The Mysterious Stranger 1916.

http://www.johnpilger.com/articles/behind-the-arab-revolt-is-a-word-we-dare-not-speak

And in the meantime, France and Britain, the prime movers demanding the setting up of a No Fly Zone suddenly find themselves having got the OK from the UN.

One might just ask the question what what hardware are we supposed to support such an action. After the Strategic Defence Review the RAF find themselves without Tornados, without Harriers, and without Tankers and Hercules Support aircraft (because they are fully committed in that other 'hiding to nothing' in Afghanistan). All we have available are a handful of Typhoons that have not been proven in a real shooting scenario. The Navy is without a single aircraft carrier because the Ark Royal was scrapped just two short weeks ago and Lusty is in major refit...And the two Type 42 destroyers we have on station are due to be scrapped upon their return to the UK.

One would have thought that this being a Mediterranean Operation we might just need some Maritime Support but we don't have a single Maritime Patrol Aircraft available because Cameron and Clegg made damn sure that the Nimrod 4 would never enter into service by breaking them up. (Shades of Wilson, Mountbatten and TSR-2).  It is also quite obvious that the bean counters in Whitehall and at MOD will be counting the cost of every round fired, of every air -to-air missile launched.

The US or rather Obama was initially reluctant to get embroiled in this action, but the Hawks in the Pentagon (along with the huge American Arms industry are fully behind it and have managed to convince him that it's a good and honourable thing to do.

Just as well really then that the Americans and the French have the resources to police the NFZ because we in the UK sure as hell dont...

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Mike,

My Uncle was at Benghazi all those years ago, and survived several attacks and also being blown up by a landmine whilst driving a vehicle, and served his country well! Then he came back to Wales, only to be killed less than two weeks later whist walking across a 'zebra crossing' as he walked his girlfriend home, The driver of the car was a Judge, and in the car with him was the then Local Chief of Police and the Desk Sergeant. The desk Sergeant was meant to be on duty at the time and yet all had been spotted in the local pub at the time, drinking heavily - all were cleared of the charge, even though my uncle was dragged underneath the vehicle for over 200 yards before the vehicle came to stop..... and the paperwork disappeared!!! 

So watch what you say about Britain and Benghazi! Our troops do a bloody good job wherever they go... whether it is right or wrong... they deserve our support! Wherever they are and whatever the reason!

Can I say this:

Why has nobody, and I mean nobody, actually commented on what is happening in Libya and to the Libyan People.

You talk about a 'lousy timing' with regards to the switching of a gas supply, where as the people who are suffering from an intolerable regime you say nothing!!! You talk about a possible energy crisis and 'bad timing'.

I spoke to my Spanish friends in Sabinillas today, and they all say that the Libyan people are suffering as the Spanish did under Franco, and it is good that the people are finally breaking free.

You all talk about Gas, Weapons and the like, and yet none of you have talked about the suffering of the Libyan people!

The mind boggles!

Rant over!

 All that's necessary for the forces of evil to win in the world is for enough good men to do nothing.
Edmund Burke (attrib)
With Gaddafi (whatever happened to that other bloke, Qaddafi?) threatening genocide, I'm glad someone finally stepped up and did something.  Hopefully it has worked and the declared ceasefire will actually occur.  

Timing again I am afraid! How is it that we never heard of the 'suffering of the Libyan' people before this adventure? A little odd to say the least.  If they were suffering, and there isn't that much evidence they were, how is it that the West was quite happy to ignore the suffering before, and to trade with Gaddafi?  'Socialist' Spain, that had its share of dictatorship, is the biggest investor in Medgas so obviously the regime that brings such suffering (allegedly) to its own people didn't touch Madrid's stony hearts before this fiasco.

Yes, there are in vogue words now; Gaddafi against his own people. It seems to me that this translates into a rag bag 'army' of discontents on the receiving end of bayonets held in the hands of a majority loyal to the dictator and his regime.

I am not waving a flag for Gaddafi; I am simply neither a hypcrite nor a fool.

Gawd! Even the Spanish are getting in on the act now; providing air strike bases, submarine surveillance; naval craft. Wow! Aren't those few rebels holed up in Benghazi touching the hearts of some Western leaders?  All of a sudden Cameron, Sarkozi, Zapatero's, Clinton's hearts are bleeding for Libya's rebels.

I hope they have military hardware left for for Bahrain, the Yemen, and all of the other places where there is popular revolt; or are they cherry picking; separating the good dictators from the bad ones?

I like the remark 'of those fighting a minority for a voice   ...   this rather made me think of the something like 90% of British people screaming at Cameron & Co to stop being foolish: In that case too the minority aren't listening either.

Great post technoape

 90% of British people screaming?  Don't think so.  You seem to be in the minority just on this board Mr Walsh.  Cameron has earned a lot of praise, from all sides, for the statesemanlike way he has handled this.  Hopefully the threat will be enough to ensure that this does not escalate but the warning is there.  Gaddafi was fine when he was in control of himself, to let loose the Dogs of War may be a step too far for some of Europe's leader who are, at last, showing a bit of spine in all this.  

The Americans are, quite rightly, helping but not leading in this so that "The Great Satan" will not be held responsible.  Good show, I say.  To my mind, getting rid of Saddam was a good thing in it's own right regardless of WMD or whatever, but the Law of Unforeseen Consequences came into play and we were stuck there for a long time.  Let's all fervently hope that getting rid of Gaddafi, another good thing in its own right, doesn't bring the same law into play.  I do believe we have a moral obligation to assist but would hate for just one more serviceman to lose his life in yet another foreign field.  I know Britain is no longer a superpower in the world but sometimes, just sometimes, you have to stand up and be counted.  

TecNoApe

for the record, my short comment was talking about the people.

Mr. Pitby: You're entitled to your opinion but having just checked the stats I can say that my website is a great deal more popular than yours. Still, with mere APARTMENTS renting at €1200 - €1600 A MONTH that is hardly surprising. Gaddafi's probably the only one who can afford them. They're certainly not for rebellious peasants, Arab or otherwise. I notice detractors avoid the questions they cannot reply to and just blithely move on with more opinions; so tedious. Time will tell.

Mrs. Pitsby. I have done quite a bit of research as it so happens. My lady and I are actively looking for a long term rental in the area. The rentals on EoS are fine by me; I have waxed lyrical about them.

I am sorry if I appear rude but I was responding in kind; I had not 'spoken' to you at all and your nasty remarks were quite uncalled for. If you have an opinion, state it. Fine. If it is a nasty remark unrelated (to the post) then bite your tongue. Generalised nastiness is unpleasant for everyone and achieves little. 

In regard to no fly zones, I am not entirely against them. I will pray tonight for one in Pakistan where the USAF have again, for the umpteeth time, slaughtered a couple of score villagers. Yes, those poor people would give a great deal for a no fly zone.

There are human rights abuses in China as we speak.  What the Russians did in Chechnya was a human rights outrage.  Did we invade China at the time of Tiananmen Square or subsequently?  Nope.  Did we install a no fly zone over Chechnya? No.  Why not?  (a) cos they're bigger than us and we only invade countries where we are more powerful (bullying to give it it's technical name) and (b) no oil.  Who has had most UN resolutions passed against them and given the finger to the UN?  Israel.  Who kill women and children in Gaza?  Israel.  Do we invade Israel?  No way. 

We would all vote for an end to human rights abuses in Libya; and in all the other countries of the world where they occur.  But we can't just wish a solution.  It has to be a workable option with a realistic chance of a permanent settlement.  And in some ways, the no fly zone stregthens Gaddafi's hand.  Gaddafi has positioned himself as the champion of the Arab world against US globalisation.  So what's our response? White, Christian invaders of an Arab, Muslim sovereign state. 

Sadly, the fact is that you interfere with the internal workings of a sovereign state at your peril.  The people of Iraq are no better off now than they were under Saddam Hussein.  And once foreign troops exit, the bloodbath will follow.  The Taliban will win in Afghanistan same as the Communists won in Korea and Vietnam. Meanwhile, we pour billions of pounds and hundreds of British troops' lives in futile pursuit of a Prime Minister's personal ambition and greed for political power.  History teaches us that interferening in a sovereign state seldom brings benefits in the long run and often results in more human suffering than doing nothing.  It's not a happy prognosis but it is a more realistic one than all the jingoism of politicians who will never be in the line of fire.  Easy for them. 

Does this forum have moderators?

We were happily going along agreeing to disagree on a hot topic when along comes Pittsby and degrades the thread into personal abuse of mike_walsh with not a single sentence on topic.