Spain - Time to reform

ads, we're talking of two different things here.  There is the issue of transparency and accountability and the Madrid demonstrations on the one hand; and the corruption in the Spanish property system on the other.  

The link that you have posted is a treatise on socialism/communism.  It is the aspiration of a large minority but rejected by the enormous majority who are happy with capitalism and with the material benefits that it brings. I don't personally have a problem with socialism/communism in theory but in practice it will never happen.  It's like Christianity without the theism.  Fact is people are selfish and any politician who even so much as suggests we put a penny on income tax to fund education or health - or these local services that Damm talks about - will not get elected.  So if you are waiting for utopia to come in via the ballot box you may be in for a very long wait.

You accuse me of generalising - fair enough.  But you are guilty of it too in that you are happy to talk generally but never give specifics.  You want transparency and accountability.  In The UK we have the Freedom of Information Act which gives you transparency.  It would be difficult to imagine what legislation you would bring in that would improve on that.  So explain how you improve transparency and how you would achieve this accountability thing beyond the ballot box and the new provision being introduced by the Coalition Government in the UK to give electors the right to recall their MP and force a by-election if they believe that he is corrupt or inept or both. 

And it's easy to rail against corruption.  But how do you define it?  In the Spanish property disgrace, mayors and town halls give approvals beyond their powers and, it is alleged, take back handers from the construction companies.  At the other end of the scale, how many Brits have handed over the envelope of black money when they purchased their property.  Corruption? 

All of the posts on this topic are from people on the outside of the political system attacking people on the inside.  All elected politicians are self-serving and corrupt.  Yet they are doing something about all the ills that we only complain about.  They have joined a political party; they have worked to persuade other members to select them as a candidate; and they have worked to persuade enough electors to vote for them to get themselves elected.  They are then in a position where they can influence events and where they can have a far better chance of achieving the aims and objectives that we can only theorise or moan about.  Don't tar all politicians with the same brush.  And if you're not happy with them, don't vote for them.  Or better still, get your arse in gear, join the political party of your choice - or start a new one - and go convince the people of the wisdom of your views. 

and goodstitch, I totally agree that peaceful protest and demonstration is an essential part of the political and democratic process.  But it has to be on an issue.  Madrid was a protest about unemployment, government spending cuts and government economic policy in general - and this from a government far to the left of anything we've experienced in the UK for 30 years.  The alternative is Rajoy and the PP.  So I'm simply saying it is not something to be taken seriously and will achieve nothing.  What Keith and others are doing on the property front is much more constructive (pun intended).

Ads:

I don't think anyone is dismissing the youth who protest.  We were all teenagers/early twenties a while back!  And intellectually able.  And we wanted to change the world, and we had all sorts of ideas.  But then that thing called "life" takes you over, and you do your best to be a kind, caring and responsible person at ground level (own doorstep stuff I mean).  Honesty and accountability starts at family level.

It would be nice to think that a few of those protestors you mention will become politicans, politicians with ideals (maybe that is a contradiction in terms!).  I am not clairvoyant but I feel that they will all probably become Mums and dads, and in ten years time will no doubt look back in bemusement on their days in the squares.

Patricia

http://ec.europa.eu/eu_law/your_rights/your_rights_en.htm

And you can actually contact José Barroso in person:

http://ec.europa.eu/commission_2010-2014/president/contact/mail/index_en.htm

And there is this:

"

"Anyone may lodge a complaint with the Commission against a Member State for any measure (law, regulation or administrative action) or practice attributable to a Member State which they consider incompatible with a provision or a principle of EU law. "

Direct email address for complaints:

SG-PLAINTES@ec.europa.eu

Patricia

I know what you are saying, but I also think that it's very easy in middle age and on to become as in the Pink Floyd song ''Comfortably numb'' and I don't think that's anything to be proud of?.  On the contrary it's more of a selfish 'I'm alright Jack'  attitude, and that's what we face from many contributors to this site sadly as well as many who could help if they had the balls to get involved.  Many of us cheated have tried the democratic route to justice for years, only to find Spain's government is anything but democratic in reailty. It's run by corruption and lies at all levels, and as such has no place for common sense justice and no interest in most of those seeking it. 

I believe it's only actions like the petitions, demonstrations etc that will show those outside Spain what's really going on and just how wrong it is, and will eventually lead to someone outside of Spain taking the very obvious action needed to bring pressure on Spain to pay back those cheated, either in cash or even property if that's the only viable option?.  The other possability is Spain's government realising that the rot that's destroyed their once huge property industry is also part of the corruption scandal that's hurt so many of us, and by putting their house in order will most likely be positive on both fronts.

Yes, Patricia - amongst others the Bank Guarantees in Spain Petition is addressed to:

Excelentísimo Señor José Manuel Barroso
President of the European Commission

("The Commission has been working hard to....bring trust and responsibility back to the financial markets.  We want strong and solid financial markets in Europe and globally that have the confidence and trust of the public and investors.  That means giving supervisory authorities sufficient information and the power to act early when a problem arises.   We also need measures to regulate the behaviour of actors in the financial markets.
We have seen both in 2008 and in recent weeks a tendency of not looking enough at the fundamentals, of not looking enough at the long term, of following the trend in the hope of making some short term gain. This needs to change.  We need to "regain the confidence of consumers and investors". - source: Speech in Brussels 2 June 2010)

("Responsible and intelligently regulated financial markets are central to the new strategy. We want a thriving banking industry here in Europe.  But we need you to play your role responsibly" - source: Speech to the European Financial Services 4 February 2010)

("One idea that I know is essential to the Spanish president: strengthening economic governance mechanisms in Europe especially in the euro area - Y una idea que sé que es esencial para la presidencia española: el refuerzo de los mecanismos de gobierno económico en Europa, especialmente en la zona euro". - source: Joint Press Conference with José Luis Rodríguez Zapatero, Madrid, 23 February 2010)

Believe me, Goodstitch, life itself keeps one from being "comfortably numb" or any kind of numb! Every day is a series of challenges. 

I haven't read every single post on this site, but I do not get the impression that anyone is doing the "I'm all right Jack". stuff.  What many are stating perhaps are the realities of life.

Patricia

Keith:

"We need to do this; we need to do that..." 

Everyone knows what is "needed". 

What exactly did Mr. Barroso's office reply to your (I hope strongly-worded) petition?

Patricia

Patricia

There are some fantastic people on this site who support those wronged, all involved with setting up or supporting the petitions and offering help when required, but sadly there are some very mean and selfish one's also. We know we have to accept that in all walks, but we should at least recognise it also on here, there is a clear difference. Nothing to do with the realities, but in the case of this thread and many similar,  everything to do with wanting to support those cheated. If we can all stick together and fight for what's right then hopefully those wronged will get justice and the biggest winner in the longer term will hopefully be Spain because it will regain trust lost through betrayal, lies and corruption.

Keith,

Your Barroso quotes all go to Europe-wide regulation of the financial markets.  Your Zapatero quote is again about regulation of financial markets especially in the Euro Zone.  In my view, most EU governments are aware of the problems in the financial markets are are doing their best to sort it.  I really don't think they need much help from the Eye on Spain forum.

Where the EU has fallen down and can be criticised, in my view, is tackling the Spanish property scandals.  In another thread on here, one British Euro MP argued that the right recourse was through the legislation and courts of the member state.  But when that member state has a culture of nepotism, bribery and tax avoidance I think it is reasonable to argue that the EU should set minimum standards for member states as it does in many areas.  The nonsense of people obtaining building licences from the ayuntamiento which are ruled ultra vires and overturned in court several years later by the Regional government with the property being bulldozed and the owners getting no compensation, ought to be sorted by the EU.  So I hope that your energies are focussed there rather than on areas where you will have no influence.

I agree with this, Jek:

"I think it is reasonable to argue that the EU should set minimum standards for member states as it does in many areas.  The nonsense of people obtaining building licences from the ayuntamiento which are ruled ultra vires and overturned in court several years later by the Regional government with the property being bulldozed and the owners getting no compensation, ought to be sorted by the EU.  "

And that is why I am asking about the petitioners approach to the EU and what, if any, concrete answers they might have received.

Patricia

Oh, another thing, Jek.  You had better get a move on and put up your pedigree and C.V. on your profile.  LOL

I must be lagging behind somehow.  I always thought one can use a "moniker" on a public forum, and indeed that one is not advised to put up personal information.

Patricia

Responses from the European Commission to Ruth and Suzannes previous petitions:

http://www.europarl.europa.eu/meetdocs/2009_2014/organes/peti/peti_20100223_0900.htm

http://www.europarl.europa.eu/meetdocs/2009_2014/documents/peti/cm/777/777511/777511en.pdf

The Commission’s comments (Ruth's original petiton)

Under the Treaty establishing the European Community and the Treaty on European Union, the Commission does not have any general powers to intervene in individual cases relating to problems of general adminstration of justice, inefficiency of the judicial system and particular issues such as described in the petition, unless there is a link to Community law.

As Community law stands at present, there is no EC legislation regulating the legal requirements relating to the granting of licences to build or the respective remedies against national authorities in case of misuse of public powers. Nor is there Community law concerning the purchase of private property, different from time-share (Directive 94/47/EC), the recovery of bank deposits, the remedies against building contractors in breach of contract, or the length of national court proceedings. Such issues are regulated by national law.

Conclusion.

In the absence of an infringement of EC law, the European Commission has no competence to intervene. The petitioner should seek redress through the competent judicial authorities in Spain invoking the non respect of Article 6 of the ECHR.

Suzanne’s petition

http://www.europarl.europa.eu/meetdocs/2009_2014/documents/peti/cm/802/802732/802732en.pdf

Commission reply, received on 22 January 2010

In response to the European Parliament’s request for information as regards the issue of bank guarantees and their reimbursement, and the links between this issue and other possible EU Directives, the Commission would like to note the following.

EC legislation does not currently include provisions concerning guarantees which are paid to banks, in relation to an acquisition of immovable property or the release of suh guarantees. Member States are, therefore, free to introduce or not in their legislation rules governing such bank guarantees.

The Commission therefore suggests that the petitioner contact the appropriate Spanish authorities. Further information on how to file a complaint is available at www.bde.es/servicio/reclamae.htm

Well, Ads, after reading that, and to be honest with you, it does not sound too hopeful.  Without the big stick of the EU to wallop the offending parties in Spain until they mend their evil ways, I cannot say I am optimistic.

Patricia

Exactly. This is why we have to fight from within the Spanish system, but also to bring into question the "competence" of the Spanish Judicial system that was quoted within the conclusions.

Everyone knows that it is incompetent and continues to compromise EU citizens. So it is up to us to highlight the failures, to bring pressure on the Spanish Government to put its house in order, and push for implementation of existing law. Not to mention striving for specific ways to improve the status quo (as identified within threads such as the Bar Association and accountability of law firms etc)

We all have our work cut out but we strive at every opportunity to look for solutions and seek help along the way. It's in everyone's interest to assist and work together to achieve justice and reform........

Or to press MEPs to introduce a new EU law or directive setting minimum standards for all member states to apply in respect of financial compensation for EU citizens who suffer financial loss as a result of government administrative incompetence or some such wording to cover the ayuntamiento versus Junta de Andalucia cases.  I don't see how bank guarantee cases could be anything other than national law though.

jek/ads

certainly like my case and in many cases it is indeed government administrive incompetence that has lead to the justice system failing us, (2 year court delay with the excuse of being 'to busy' to cope, then allowing the company we won against in court to start trading again without paying us the £40,000 the court awarded us against them) and by them not being prepared to recognise their failing and offer compensation, they are ultimately the biggest crooks of all, as we have to trust their competence and recognition of right and wrong.

Our MEP's tell us they can't help us and it's up to us to go through the Spanish justice system.  What a stupid and yet again incompetent answer when that system itself is clearly incompetent!!

When as is the case, the current EU law fails it's people so badly then only the new directive you mention would be a reasonable and fair option.  Spain clearly has no intention of putting it's own house in order.

Only on this morning's news has it been announced that the EU farmers caught up in the veg fiasco will have EU funds allotted to them. How quickly the EU works when it wants to!! 

Jek said:

"And it's easy to rail against corruption.  But how do you define it?  In the Spanish property disgrace, mayors and town halls give approvals beyond their powers and, it is alleged, take back handers from the construction companies.  At the other end of the scale, how many Brits have handed over the envelope of black money when they purchased their property.  Corruption? "

Yep.

Patricia

I would be surprised if it were only Brits who were handing over envelopes of black money!  I bet the Germans, Russians, Swiss etc etc were also pretty good at that too!

The Notaries knew what was going on.  I have heard about many a Notary having a sudden urge to visit the toilet just at the crucial moment!

I would imagine where a mortgage was being taken out on a property the Bank Manager also knew what going on as they would have been in the Notary Office to sign the mortgage deed would they not?

Of course it does not make it right and that is why the Spanish Government tackled the issue of Under Declarations a few years ago.

It's a pity they have not yet attempted to tackle the issue of developers, banks and lawyers completely ignoring Spanish Law, LEY 57/68.

Kind regards

Keith

Keith110

If UK buyers have handed over black money, I certainly haven't heard about any of it?.  If anything, I believe most Brits were probably to honest in their dealings because they believed that they could trust those in positions of legal trust, something we take for granted in the UK and should be able to in any EU country if we are expected to take any notice of  the EU?.  Sounds more like a smokescreen to me to try and bring balance where there is at best very little.  As for jek saying ''how do we define corruption''........very easily when it comes to Spain!,  you follow the rules, you get screwed by corrupt crooks at all levels taking advantage of poor regulation and non implementation of law, you take it to court, and after years of fighting, you win your very clear case against a now proven corrupt developer and then are screwed again by the justice system because their unreasonable and incompetent delays result in the court judgement being useless.  That's just one example among many that's anything but hard to define!!.   As for the Spanish government competely ignoring their own law 57/58, again it's corruption by any other name.