Spain - Time to reform

Goodstitch

I don't think Jek and Patricia were talking about black money being paid for off-plan purchases.

I think they were talking about Under Declarations and part of the money in brown envelopes for RESALE properties.

This issue has been tackled by the Spanish Government.

Maybe they can correct me if I misunderstood their comments.

Kind regards

Keith

Keith

ok, thanks for correcting me on that one.  I would think that the sort of corruption in re-sales is seen as 'going with the flow' then?.  Once it becomes common knowledge that the corruption is part of a selling proccess then who wants to buck the trend?.

 I'm glad to see you saying that the Spanish government are tackling it, otherwise far from being ok, it just makes the case for those playing by the rules, difficult to say the least. If the whole bloody system wasn't infected with so much corruption, then standing up for what's right would be seen as normal and the right thing to do, rather than banging your head against a wall of lies and deception, which is what many of us are doing at the moment, even at levels where we have to rely on integrity for justice and should be able to trust in it?.

Keith,

It appears that the Government have tackled corruption that led to loss of revenue on their part, but are doing very little to tackle corruption that directly affects consumers, the most notable of which is to provide a credible and effective system of justice with accountability in place for those who abuse the system, adequate time constraints to ensure proper implementation of law, and compensation where appropriate.

Yours and Ruth's evidence go some way to assist in this regard but we also depend upon those good legal professionals to report and place on record instances of negligence, obstruction of legal procedures, conflict of interests, inconsistent judgements, compromising time delays etc to the relevant law societies. At present it appears that there are no effective procedures in place to record these instances from which to take effective action. Perhaps I am wrong, in which case I hope Maria would advise us.

Faro has observed "The local colegios have demonstrated they cannot self regulate so what's required is a centralised and independent disciplinary committee with power to fine and revoke practising certificates and once a complaint is made it is investigated in a timely manner. "

May I ask therefore if Maria is willing to represent her clients in this way and report back her findings to the relevant law societies but request that they effect some centralised mechanism to address these serious problems? Or can she perceive of another effective mechanism to address the longer term problems of accountability within the legal profession?

Maria will I am sure speak for herself.  On the other hand and I asked this before why not approach other "good" legal professionals too.  And there is  nothing to stop someone, lawyer or not, from writing to a law society to report malpractice.

Why is it just Maria who is being asked to become a latter-day Robin Hood?

Patricia

Good question Patricia.... where are the others?

I didn't ask that, Ads.  LOL.

Is there some reason why others who are deemed "good" are not being asked to join the crusade.

Patricia

We have asked in the past and suggested to Maria (who was our Robin Hood) to bring on board other "good" professionals, but we don't know who they are!!!!!!

Oh, they are out there, Ads, they are out there.

Dare I mention again the many many investors in Spain who were pleased with the service provided by their solicitors.  There may be many who even read this forum, but maybe they are afraid to say they had a good experience. 

Patricia

Oh Patricia, that's not the point, we know there are those with good experience, what we are trying to address is those who have suffered bad experience due to negligence, lack of due diligence, obstruction of legal procedures, conflict of interests etc etc and when they have sought alternative legal representation (hopefully good representation) they STILL are suffering at the hands of an incompetent system of justice ......... That's the whole point. AN INCOMPETENT SYSTEM OF JUSTICE THAT REQUIRES REFORM AND ACCOUNTABILITY WITHIN THE LEGAL PROFESSION. Just because some have struck lucky and achieved a successful purchase, doesn't mean to say that this lottery within the legal system should not be corrected.

If there are other good legal professionals that others have come across, if they want to help then could they please ask their legal representatives directly themselves (as we have more than enough on our hands at present) to come forward and strive for a better system of justice and to strive for regulation within their own profession.

Evidence to date suggests that they are very reticent to do so, which as Goodstich has suggested, then infers to us that they are not so good after all!!!! Hence Maria is certainly becoming our Robin Hood, as she is the only one who appears on record to be willing to at least put her head above the parapet and fight our corners.

We have enough on our hands and cannot possibly bring together good legal professionals (when we don't know who they are). The good legal professionals should be initiating this process for themselves if they want Spain to gain any credibility.

Patricia

why would they be afraid?.  When 'good experiences' are helpful they are always welcome. It's what we all set out wanting after all.  What we need is everyone pulling in the same direction so that we can get long overdue changes bought in as soon as possible, not only for all those cheated but for the future of the Spanish property industry. The two are very much linked.

Ads:

The many who have had a trouble-free property investment, or other trouble-free transaction are hardly likely to ask their lawyers to do what you suggest.  Those persons who have not had an adverse experience (and they are the majority) are not part of your campaign, I assume.  I don't think it is a question of "striking lucky". 

It is up to those who are campaigning to do the asking.   What you are saying is that those lawyers who provided a good and responsible legal service to their satisfied clients are "not so good after all" just because they do not join your campaign!!

Patricia

Maybe a Robin Hood candidate

From a site I found by José Cosin

http://knol.google.com/k/la-corrupci%C3%B3n-y-sus-causas#

and

http://knol.google.com/k/jose-cosin/spanish-financial-system-after-the/13kwlyjpw36ug/9#

Patricia

Maria has as far as I know, tried to drum up support for reform, but it's fallen on deaf ears.  As I said to you before, there's alot of 'I'm alright Jack' attitude amongst not only some ex-pats but lawyers also.  The fact that many buyers are happy doesn't really help those cheated does it?, all it does is try to deny or reduce the reality for all those wronged and that's not going to help anyone.

Many lawyers are making a good living out of the thousands of cases of bad practice and injustice in Spain, and of course don't want the gravy train stopped. If they wanted to, I believe they could get together with other legal experts in the property industry and make change happen much faster than it is now, but there seems to be little will for that and probably because it's it's not hurting them directly.

I did not say that, Goodstitch, that there is an "I'm all right Jack attitude" among those who bought satisfactorily.  Realistically, do you expect the thousands and thousands of purchasers of homes in Spain who have not had an adverse experience to join your ranks?   What I asked was how many of the "good" (perceived good) lawyers have been approached to join the cause (a bit pointless don't you think approaching the "bad" lawyers?). 

I keep asking the question: how many of those who have a grievance have directly and personally sent a letter of complaint to the law society to which the "bad" lawyer belonged?  All of them; none of them? 

Not everyone has a crusading soul, Goodstitch.  I think it is demeaning to say that people who have satisfactorily bought a home in Spain are in the "I'm all right Jack" brigade. 

Patricia

Patricia

you are wasting your breath. People like goodstich & ads won't let up until they have managed to alienate all the rest of us who would have been their natural allies but have frankly got fed up with being lectured about our  supposed "I'm all right Jack" status.

I am never going to apologize for having the luck of a good experience, but neither am I going to get involved in helping these so-called seekers of justice while they continue to approach me and all the others who have had a good experience as if we are part of the problem rather than a potential part of the solution.

I'm going to leave this thread and leave them to it and suggest you do the same

I'm hoping to bump into my local MEP at a conference on Saturday and, if I get the chance, would like to mention this to him.  But he will expect to know precisely what is being complained about and in what way EU jurisdiction might kick in.

I am aware of one type of case in Almeria province where the local ayuntamiento gave licencias that were ultra vires - outside their authority.  The Junta de Andalucia took the ayuntamiento to court and won.  The result is that the development is then illegal and along come the bulldozers with no compensation for the Brit victims.  So it's easy to say that there should be a pan-EU directive that says that where citizens buy in good faith based on correct licences from the local planning authority and that authority makes an error that leads to the property being forfeit, all member states must have arrangements to provide temporary accommodation and speedy financial compensation.

But when it's a case of a developer lying about licences or bank guarantees, I don't see how that can be an EU issue as national law exists that covers it.  Then the issue is lax application of national law which I don't see many MEPs getting involved with and where the three musketeers (Keith, ads and goodstitch) are doing their best to make progress with the Spanish government.  Futile in my opinion but I understand the need to try.  The best I have seen so far in this area is demonstrating at the Spanish property roadshow.   Because without the oxygen of publicity, no campaign will survive.  For non-resident owners of Spanish property, isn't it worth organising a campaign of writing to their MP in Britain and marching on Westminster to get government Ministers to bring pressure on their Spanish counterparts?

So help me out here.  If I do get the chance to chat with my MEP what other categories of complaint do you feel falls within possible EU jurisdiction?

Patricia

the route to the law society in Spain is a joke sadly. It's little more than a toothless old boys club, that looks after its members and is not interested in 'bad' lawyers. 

Why shouldn't all purchasers join our ranks, if it's in their interest?, or are they all happy with the current mess that is the Spanish property industry and don't give a toss about all those cheated?.  Anyone not supporting our cause is not supporting positive change in Spain's attitude to law and justice.  I would confidently say that anyone who has endured Spain's often hopeless and slow justice system would support the very urgent need for change, but it's often the old story sadly, ''not my problem'' or ''not in my back yard''.

We will be far stronger if everyone pulls together.

I don't know whether it is a joke or not Goodstitch.  Second-guessing is a fruitless pursuit, and so is railing against the system unless action is taken.   I have a feeling the law societies may not be including this forum in their daily reading, so unless you put the views expressed here in a LETTER to them, you cannot expect very much from that quarter.

If all clients who had a disastrous experience with a negligent or corrupt lawyer send a letter to the law society for the area, explaining their grievances, well, IMO it is better than doing nothing, while waiting for the masses to join you. 

And, Jek makes a great point here:

"Because without the oxygen of publicity, no campaign will survive. "

And, and, he is offering something positive.

Patricia

Thank you Hammersfan.  Yes, I agree, there is this "lecturing" tone, and while I sympathise greatly with the people who have had a bad experience the whole "victimhood" thing can get a bit tiresome. 

I too think I am wasting my time.  I make a suggestion, or ask a question, and what do I get::  a "sidelong" answer. 

It's as if we who have, for whatever reason, one business to our satisfaction are somehow part of the unfair scheme of things.

Patricia

Please do as Jek is asking, and please READ his question.

"So help me out here.  If I do get the chance to chat with my MEP what other categories of complaint do you feel falls within possible EU jurisdiction?"

Patricia