I see the Doom & Gloom Merchants have taken over the site again

Oh dear, so much for the truce. Here we go again. Reinforcement of "doom and gloom merchants". Such provocative terminology. This is really sad and looks as though it is a campaign to discredit/impinge discussion re legitimate concerns/advice re highly important issues that sadly are massively affecting Spain as we speak. Consumer protection is a vital issue that affects all and will continue to impact Spain until this is addressed by the Government.

I will go with whatever Justin suggests and will refrain from debate if this is causing such concern on EOS.

My best wishes to all, however, as this is not personal.

ads

You can't please everyone, and I'm sure you have the backing of all those who want the best for all those cheated and consumer protection in general, which in turn can only help Spain's ailing property industry.

 Keep up the good work! 

haydngj
 (...and if I can't count, you can't  spell-:)

At the point where I raised this thread, if I remember rightly, all the current threads except one were about justice issues, Developments that weren't happening etc. (Notice here that in the spirit of the truce I'm not using the term Doom & Gloom)

 I felt that  this was not representative of the views of what Summer 70  quite rightly calls  "the silent majority" and wanted to redress the balance. That's it. period, all she wrote etc...

Some peope have been singularly unable to understand  my complaint about the  volume of such threads has nothing whatever to do with the subject of the campaign itself.  To use a  couple of purposely stupid examples, If all the threads were concerned with raising the speed limits to 200KPH, or were campaigning for the pope to make Kylie a saint, I would have raised  a "I see the Speed Demons / Kylie Lovers have taken over the site again" thread

EOS works best when there is a diversity of topics and opinions available to all...and the rush of certain people to condemn this thread as bullying / derogatory etc. only emphasises the fact that certain topics appear to be sacrosanct  and I really don't accept that at all.

I think the title of this thread will inevitably bring about references to "doom and gloom", ads.   It will attract those people who want to promote life in Spain in a positive way, who will think "Must have a go at the "doom and gloom merchants" today, before going out for a few beers in the sunshine!"  it will also attract those people who feel they are wrongly being called "doom and gloom merchants", who will think "Must have a go at the "head in the sand brigade" who refuse to face up to the negatives about Spain, before going out for a few over-priced pints in my local pub and to shelter from the rain."

OK.  Believe me, I'm not trying to upset either side - after all, I was the one calling for a truce.  As I pointed out, I have had both positive and negative experiences here. 

What I would like to do now, is bring Justin into this.  Justin, what is the aim of your website?  Who are your readers?  I always believed it was for people living here to share their experiences, and help each other.  I also believed it was for people thinking of moving to Spain to find out the potential problems and pitfalls AS WELL AS the lifestyle they can look forward to experiencing once they move here.  That is why I think both sides should be allowed to speak out without fear of being attacked for their views. 

I also think that threads need to be more clearly defined, and maybe Justin can do something technical to sort this out?  On my blog, which tends to emphasise the positive side of life in Spain, I have two main categories: the Ups and Downs of Living in Spain (yes, there are a few downs!); and Spain on a Budget, so anybody with the slightest interest in one of the categories can just look for the relevant posts.  Would it be possible to have something similar here, especially within the General chit chat forum?  Category A for "doom and gloom merchants" and category B for "head in sand brigade"

What I would like to emphasise, which is highlighted through the disagreements on this thread, is the  danger that newcomers to EOS could be totally put off by the bickering.  Most of us who have been here for a few years know the individuals who have been contributing to the argument, and we can accept what is said within that context, but what about somebody new to EOS, hoping to find useful information about moving here or just visiting for a holiday?  Whatever will they make of us?!  That is why I asked for a truce……!

Sue

Hi Hammersfan

I totally agree with you, it does not matter what ever the topic is it always gets turned into a doom & gloom thread.

Whilst no one wishes it subtract from their cause, when they continue to hijack every possible thread it just detracts from the subject, and just becomes tedious.

Basically hammersfan you are just wasting your time!

Hello Roddy:

I fully agree with you, and Hammersfan.  You are right too about wasting our time! 

It is a sad state of affairs when one cannot put forward an opinion or ask a question without being subjected to verbal (written) abuse.  And I can, and will, stand up for myself if I get verbal or any other abuse. 

I fully agree too with "Summer".

Sue:

You make good suggestions, and after all the website belongs to Justin.  I know that I certainly do not have my head in the sand about Spain.  After decades living here I am well aware of the shortcomings.  Justin also wrote a few excellent articles on that particular topic, so that newcomers could be aware of pitfalls. 

But the thread was NOT about hiding the pitfalls, and just highlighting th good.  Roddy puts it in a few brief words. 

No matter what the thread or the topic (even if it were about growing lettuces or knitting patterns!) would be hijacked for the "campaign".  And if someone wants to say that is how they see it, then they are entitled to SAY it.  And to say it without being subjected to abuse and insult.

Patricia

You ask what newcomers will make of us.  Well, what they will see is what they will see. 

And that's exactly why I agreed Sue.

My last words on this is are as follows:

Hammersfan,

I thought that I had explained all of this in a private message? It looks as though you want to drag this out into the open forum, so apologies in advance to all of those for whom this is incredibly boring.

The reference to bullying was nothing to do with the Justice issue, nor any suggestion that the topic of Justice is sacrosanct.

It was merely to point out that opinions should be respectful (Goodstich apologised if you remember) and that people have the right to respond to provocation (sadly all too frequent, almost as if they were goading a response) or misinformation without fear of it being classed as "hijacking", as has frequently been suggested to date (and in the last posting by roddy1!).

The volume of threads tends to reflect the ongoing issues which as we all know to our cost have sadly been linked to real and increasing problematical issues of justice. (If only this was not the case!) It's a moving target that we have the right to respond to. It's not our fault that we have to address all these issues and moving targets and educate one another in the process, it's the Spanish Government's fault for not addressing these issues and for not enforcing the law!  I would hope that people have the right on EOS to be kept informed and where necessary to organise and campaign and debate the issues so long as Justin considers it fair. We also presumably have the right, as anyone else does, to identify detail where necessary and to suggest that this is taking over EOS is totally wrong. What would you have us do? Keep quiet? Not inform? Not identify the detail so as to comprehend the complexity of it all? Not gain evidence? Not forewarn or even provide occasional moral support? 

For good ness sake put this to bed, because you are ironically doing the very thing that you are criticising us about, except that in your case it appears as the same message, over and over again, and doesn't take account of our constant endeavours to contend with  (wearily I might add), the ever growing instances of injustice/ retrospective rulings etc and the requirement for communication, assistance etc  ......

I'm with Sue on this.

EOS would appear to benefit from some separation of the sections (I asked many moons ago for a dedicated Justice section) but equally don't lose sight of the fact that where provocation or misinformation exists on any thread, that everyone has the right to repy without being prejudged as "hijacking".

I would suggest that if the postings were respectful and not personally provocative in nature that it would solve much of this problem. Trouble is, as has been pointed out before, this is human nature, so it's probably a false hope on my part!!

suemac

some good points made. On your last one, thank heavens for the mix of posts, but surely some of the biggest issues at the moment for those new to EOS looking for info' must be the state of the Spanish property industry and even more importantly the state of the consumer protection or rather the lack of it.  Had the knowledge on this site been available 10 years ago many people would have been much better informed.  The positive Spain posts are of course very important for the site to have balance, but are we saying  that they are as important as saving someones home, life savings, sanity etc? , which is why I think there are many threads trying to help those hurt so badly.  

Many of the big problems of the industry are linked to what some good souls on the site are fighting so hard for, so cross in to many threads that don't always have an obvious connection.  It would be nice to think that those who are fed up with what they see as 'doom and gloom'', would stop for a moment and consider what those victims are going through, and see if they can help or, support in any way? .  We all want to see an end to what has helped wreck Spain's property industry and hurt so many, and the sooner we find a solution the better for everyone.  I'm sure the site will reflect that when the time is right.

Ads:

I agree that there should be no personal attacks on posters.  And to finish with this could I just say that if someone is not sure of another poster's intention, then please send them a PM (I won't bite anyone!!), rather than hurling abuse and brawling on an open forum.  A lot of unpleasantness would thus be avoided IMO.

Wishing everyone well

Patricia

Perhaps we should have a smiley with a red card that we can post when necessary, oh and a smiley with a truce card !

Courtesy of morerosado (thanks!)

ads

How about a smiley with ''Selfish Bas**d'' on it?........only joking    

 I think if we get support for the fight against the things that are clearly wrong and the victims of those wrongs, then there would be no bad feelings.

Perhaps we should have a heading like 'justice thread' or 'consumer protection thread'  and make sure all posts related are kept to those sections so as not to bore the pants of those not interested in those issues?.

I've been reading this topic / threads with interest and have a few times started to post a reply then decided against it .....

My general view is that it is unrealistic to expect the themes and content of particular topics to purely focus on 'one side of the coin'. We will all invariably have different perspectives on things / life etc based on our own personal experiences and by sharing these, the reader will obtain a far broader range of information. The key point is that viewpoints should be given in ways that do not become a personal attack on another individual poster(s), just because their view is different. Such an approach DOES put off new members of the forum, and it ALSO puts off those of us who have been members for years from contributing.

I do feel that the title of the thread is a little provocative and it came as no surprise to me that it would invariably result in frustrations, which have materialised in the written word. The hard work of many to highlight and act against the significant issues in Spain regarding poor build quality, lack of bank guarantees, corrupt legal system etc should be welcomed by all. The information provided will, I'm sure, help people who are considering a property purchase in Spain to (hopefully) research their goals fully and to consider the potential pitfalls before committing themselves financially. However, let's not forget that there are many people who are happy living in Spain or have holiday homes in the country that they are happy with....The suggestions that there should be a Justice section on EOS appears to be a sensible solution, but its Justin's website, so its up to him whether to take this forward or not.

It would be nice to see some more lighthearted threads started, and a few people (including Campana) are doing their best to lighten things up a bit. Lets all contribute as much to these as the other more serious, as yes important, threads on EOS

Hope it's a good day for all !!

This message was last edited by wend691 on 14/07/2011.

Hi Wend691

yes I think that's what most of us want?, just acceptance of good and bad and understanding of each others situations.  I don't think any of those who are trying hard to find solutions to the problems, or those supporting them ever forget that there are many people happy with their Spanish situation, because of course that's what we all set out to achieve. Having said that, how many are happy with the current price falls, the general reputation of the Spanish property industry and the misery caused to many cheated?.  I feel the changes that some of us are fighting hard for will benifit all areas of the property market and of course that includes those happy with their lot.

when you have the time would you correct my spelling hammersfan

Hi Goodstich / all

I totally agree that 'the changes that some of us are fighting hard for will benefit all areas of the property market and of course that includes those happy with their lot'.

Good luck and thank you to those of you that are putting so much energy, commitment and hard work into challenging the problems in the Spanish system and trying to make things right for us all

 For all prolific writers on this forum

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s-xd3NuWQI0

Cove Robert

great fun video, but I don't think the lead he's refering to is the lead you write with!!

 T'was to good to let go, Goodstitch.