A debate on Capitalism

I have to admit that it would be a sad case if we have a society where all they are concerned about is handouts... a section of society are like this, agreed, but I think the majority of EU citizens are far less self centred and hopefully care about the wider issues.

If we are to effect a better society, then it may be argued that we have to take the opinions and debate from those who do care!! (is that too contentious do you think?)

Agreed, but where do we hold the debate?  I will be 70 in about 18 months and would like to be involved before my mental acuity dropped so far that my only choice would be to become a politician (or a top policeman!).

I am not taking any "attitude".  I am just telling it like it is.  And I am not the only one who says it either.

Sure, there are people who, as Hammersfan correctly says, do play by the rules, and have concerns about corruption and the inner workings of places of power.  That section of people who, as you say, Ads, care about wider issues could debate until judgement day, and give opinions, but how would that change the psyche of  the majority?

Who would not want a world where everything works to perfection, where there is no corruption, no "baddies" , full accountability, ...but, who is going to impose this perfection?

People in general are self-centred, one of the reasons being that they are so pre-occupied with just staying afloat, trying to keep a job, get home after work, look after their family, (they may be involved in caring for a sick or disabled person),and the thousand other things that make up a day.  It does not mean they are "bad" people for not being involved in campaigns regarding wider issues. 

Patricia

I quote Xetog again:

"Whilst we are holding forth against institutionalised corruption in the capitalist system, we should recognise in the UK that moral turpitude is endemic in our society. "

He is right.

Patricia

Ads,

I have no doubt that what you say is true about the people you speak to, but the reality is that there is a substantial majority who do not care about anything other than where their next booze/fags/drugs are coming from....that's at one end of the spectrum. Then at the other end you have the super rich who for the very opposite set of reasons don't care very much about anything either.

That leaves what is euphamistically called middle Britain, people who are trying to make things better for themselves and their families, some of the time by being involved in the wider issues like those you raise but also for example by working hard so that in the next round of job cuts they are seen as indispensible i.e. realizing that they and theirs come first.

So overall,  the percentage of people who a) want to make a difference and b) have either the time or the inclination to make the kind of major changes you mention is relatively small

....but having said that people are trying to make a difference in their own small way, for example I am with a Major Bank in the city, and last year my colleagues gave over 3000 volunteer days, doing everything from painting schools and youth clubs, being reading partners for kids at schools in our local area (the city is right next door to Hackney which is a terribly deprived area), we ran Interview classes  for the kids about to leave school and showed them how to create CVs, we even had people advising local doctors on the financial aspects of running their practices. The bank itself has paid for the building, equiping and staffing of a complete new school in Hackney... google it - "The Bridge Academy"...the trouble is people never hear about these things....

sorry I digressed a bit, but my point is that making a difference doesn't have to be about grand gestures and sweeping away  corrupt institutions. sometime if enough people make small changes the results can be just as effective

sorry that should say substantial minority

Yes, Hammers, I agree!

"my point is that making a difference doesn't have to be about grand gestures and sweeping away  corrupt institutions. sometime if enough people make small changes the results can be just as effective."


People helping each other out as best they can, to make life more tolerable for others even on a small scale.  I read some time back that around 6 million (yes!) people in the U.K. are engaged to some degree in voluntary work. 
 

Patricia

Agreed that small voluntary actions can definitely help in their own special way (really heartening, I might add) but it doesn't solve the problem of lack of overall accountability and corruption by a minority of powerful people whose actions are affecting the majority.

So how do you suggest this is addressed? Carry on with the status quo and an ever increasing downward spiral (requiring more and more voluntary help by Middle England or Middle Spain!), or establish some alternative solution to the root cause of the problem?

I tend to be of the opinion that putting off painful decisions tends to exacerbate the problem and I have a feeling that the youth of today are not prepared for us to compromise their futures in this way. And who can blame them? I've said it before and I'll repeat it again. We owe them a solution.

p.s. Lets stay friendly in this debate OK? No personalising please!!!!

What can be done, Ads?  What can be done.  What is the solution. 

I could go tomorrow and yell my head off outside a parliament building.  Would it make a difference?  No.

There are those who would put forward more drastic solutions like exile the corrupt lot to some kind of Devil's Island.  Even were that possible, would it really make a difference.  I just ask, that's all.

And I full endorse your P.S. by the way, Ads.

Patricia

I thought I had already identified a potential solution via standardising effective regulation across Europe, backed up by the provision of effective and accountable justice systems ( implementing recommendations by the World Justice Project).  (sigh). I don't see this as a solution for people to fear. It's basic common sense and good regulation provides a means to curb the excesses of capitalism, doesn't it?

FYI, according to an EU seminar I recently witnessed there is much already going on behind the scenes to strive for some standardised solution/approach to property rights in Europe, but it is in the early stages of development. That's where I get frustrated, like Xetog, as I want a swifter solution!!!.... But there are already political moves afoot to address some of these issues via standardising practices.

Surely It's possible to gain solutions to the excesses of capitalism if we all pressure our politicians for decent basic consumer rights that can be implemented and accessible to all. (This is contentious as it would probably be on a no win/ no fee basis).

Everyone would have to come together as "people power",so to speak, to effect this. If only Jo public would believe in people power and home in on established organisations that fight for ethical reform, such as AVAAZ to accomplish this. Many are in ignorant bliss of the possibilities to effect change....

Don't know if anyone saw the TV prog "Hardtalk" tonight (BBC news channel) as it talked about many of the transparency/accountability/regulation issues that we are debating. Fascinating stuff and it's good to see that this has now come to the top of the pollitical agenda.

This message was last edited by ads on 21/07/2011.

This message was last edited by ads on 21/07/2011.

I agree that some movement on the part of regulatory bodies is important and because of the recent furore over Hackingate it looks like politicians are at last noticing that public opinion demands change.  However, the same thing happened over MP's expenses which forced politicians to act and modify the expenses regime, yet already we see largess and lack of transparency creeping back into the system.  YOU CAN'T TRUST POLITICIANS any more than you can trust a car theif or a captain of industry.  They will always gravitate towards self interest.  In some way this is true of all of us, but I like to believe that out there somewhere there exists a huge number of ordinary, decent people who have both the intelligence and the will, given the right vehicle, to raise their voices and demand permanent change in the way that capitalism is organised.

I believe that capitalism through democracy is the only way forward and organisations like AVAAZ seem to be attempting to move the agenda in the right direction, but they espouse many things that I do not agree with and have a membership of less the 10 million out of a population of 7 billion.  Even then they have problems getting 250,000 of their membership to vote on any particular subject.

Surely we need a similar organisation which just applies to the UK before we can bring changes to our own systems?

in ads last post these words were mentioned   ' transparency/accountability/regulation '.     Without these being considered normal or accepted as common sense, then I don't think we will move forward?   It's obviously a problem to some degree everywhere but at least in some countries in the EU for instance, some level of regulation calls for some accoutability.

Putting aside for a moment the UK hacking mess (though all part of the problem) and  those who bought in Spain purely to make a quick buck, just how many would be in the current mess if these three words were put to some effect in Spain?, or for that matter what would be the current state of the Spanish property industry?. Lack of transparency anywhere leads to lack of trust, and why wouldn't it?, what are they trying to hide?.  I really feel that with the advance of the internet, people wont be ruled by fear or lack of information in future and  people everywhere are starting to realise that transparency is everthing,..... but how long will it take before governments accept that?.

"transparency is everthing,..... but how long will it take before governments accept that?."  It will last as long as the politicians have something to hide!  Politicians are the gullible, influenced by the egotistical.  Ministers are almost to a man (or woman) entirely without expertise in the subject over which they hold sway (how many ex soldiers have been Minister for Defence, or Doctors Minister for Health?) and even when they have some experience, the enormity of the task is usually beyond them.  Rarely does a politician have real knowledge of the daily grind faced by the man or woman who foots the bill for their largesse.  Take the EU for a start.  Due to the huge fraud perpetrated by unelected grandees the accounts have never been signed off by the accountants responsible for overseeing them.  In the UK, as in the banks and most large businesses, those at the top are usually part of the "old boy network" who never had to dirty their hands with actual work.

Sorry Goodstich, but the answer to your question is ..... never!  We need an entirely different system.. How about doing away with elected Governance altogether and having a system based upon the jury system.  Every time a governmental decision needs to be made,a panel of say 100 citizens is convened, acquainted with all the facts and a vote taken.  We are too big to do it the Swiss way and internet voting is too open to fraud at present, so how about discussing that as an idea?  Lots of problems I know, but the average citizen would hardly be less knowledgeable than politicians and certainly less tainted.  Perhaps we should turn to the monarchy for leadership?  Lets have a few ideas floated.  We still want capitalism, but we want it open and honest with the people resposible for the wealth generation making the decisions.

xetog

now there's a thought?. Far to radical for most I would think, but I like the idea of some sort of a jury system having a say on important decisions, that should at least make sure a government is more transparent and accountable?

Perhaps we need a national think tank made up from all areas of life and politicians should be encouraged to listen and debate new ideas from within that think tank, and be made to recognise their remoteness from the realities of everyday life. A starting point perhaps?

Found this on another thread (http://www.eyeonspain.com/forums/posts-long-13994.aspx)  -

http://user34346.vs.easily.co.uk/?page_id=26

Oddly enough, I was just reading this item when Valeros' post arrived.  I have realised for a long time that most of the money inthe world was simly lines of credit, so it's not news, but wouldn't it be interesting to make a law that everyone in the world had to declare what they owed and to whom and then total everything up to find out who really owns all the money / wealth in the system and how much there really is if all debts were called in?

 Not that odd. I only posted it a couple of hours ago.

Capitalism can work when businesses that aren´t competitive are allowed to go bust. That´s the safety valve. When governments, in fact whole continents, are artificially supporting a business model that doesn´t work - then you have a problem.

Jose Manuel Barroso - President of the European Commission since 2004. 2004! I didn´t elect him, did you? This is how European democracy works.

Herman Van Rompuy - Presidentof the European Council - Did you have any say in his appointment? ´course you didn´t!

Christine Lagarde - Managing Director of the IMF - facing questions over her role as finance minister in France when she awarded €270 million to one of her party supporters who is a convicted football match fixer. She took over the role from Dominique Strauss-Kahn, another notable French politician. Anyone vote for either of them?

These are the people insisting that that the United States RAISES its debt ceiling, that sovereign nations accept bailouts, That we all have to implement austerity whilst they spend half a billion on new offices. The EC hasn´t had its accounts signed off in 15 years. No-one knows where the money goes. Fact: The EC has no idea how many people it employs.

The IMF isn´t some kindly organisation helping Greece, Portugal and Ireland out of a tight spot. It makes its money on the interest, and the rest of the EU has to stump up the real cash. Lowering public sector wages, upping retirement ages - right now Spain has to borrow money on the bond markets at 6% for its 10 year notes, it then gives the money to the ECB which lends it to Greece at 3.5%. It is idiotic.

Everyday, people are getting wiser to the scam. There´s a house repossession and a subsequent eviction every 8 minutes in Spain, a country already battling 21% unemployment, 43% youth unemployment. There´s going to be blood on the streets, tanks rumbling past. the unions are going to set the country on fire when PP get elected in November.

We´re facing times that very few of us have ever had to face before. Last time a meltdown like this occurred we needed World War II to restore some sort of balance.

Enjoy your weekend! lol

Regards

Only yesterday the EMF stated its intention to purchase Spanish, Greek and Italian bonds, but with who’s money?  Clearly they are just taking promissory notes in return for credit, in other words a totally paper (maybe even paperless) transaction.  When poring evermore non-existent money into a black hole fails, as it surely must, who foots the bill?  In this case it will be mainly Germany, although many of our own banks are owed billions by these people already and such is the complexity of the financial world who know who actually owns the assets behind all the loans?  I wonder what the Germans feel about this situation?

I agree that the EU is about as democratic as China and less so than Zimbabwe, but we are debating capitalism not democracy (although perhaps we should).  The EU is probably the least capitalistic organisation I can think of because capitalism is about making profits, not pouring billions of euros/pounds/dollars into intentionally loss making projects.

Even if our politicians have the guts to pull us out of the EU, which they don’t, we would not escape the effects of the crash, but at least we would be standing on our own feet and not constantly bowing to every EU whim.