The meeting with David Lidington

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30 Sep 2011 12:00 AM by ruth Star rating in on a hill in rural L.... 117 posts Send private message

 

The meeting with David Lidington and his team of 3 went ahead in early September – you may have seen the press release issued by David Lidington on the British Embassy ‘UK in Spain’ website. There were 4 of us, Keith Rule, Mike Kerr, and two Gendas, my son, Kafo and me, Ruth. We came away from our all-too-short time in the grand surroundings of the Foreign & Commonwealth Office (FCO) with a feeling that we did have the ear of the Minister and that he would do the best he could for us under the diplomatic constraints imposed on him.
 
We had several proposals to put to him and he had questions for us. It became very clear that he and his 3 aides present in the room have no real sense of what we victims of property abuse have been experiencing. That was to be expected as ‘until you’ve been there and done that’ it is impossible to imagine. I saw, what I believe to be genuine, surprise on the faces of the officials when Keith brandished the mass, and I mean mass, of evidence he has gathered in his efforts on behalf of the Finca Parcs development. It began to dawn on the FCO team that our arguments are to be taken very seriously.
 
 Briefly then, this is what transpired:
 
  • Mr Lidington would inform the British Embassy in Madrid of our meeting.
 
  • He would issue a Press Release giving details of the meeting.
 
  • Neither Mr Lidington nor his aides were aware of the Bank Guarantee issues as illustrated by Keith.  He has promised to raise them with, and take advice from, Ambassador Paxman in Madrid.  The full-time ‘property expert’ (employed by us, the UK taxpayer) is based in the embassy there.
 
  • He promised to raise the issue of Bank Guarantees with Spanish Ministers at every opportunity, whether on the telephone or face-to-face.
 
  • He will explore the possibility of officials from the Bank of Spain meeting with us.  He will encourage this.
 
  • He will advise UK MEPs to establish a formal cross-party working group together with those of member states re property issues in Spain.
 
  • He said that he would find out if the EU Budgetary Control imposed on Cyprus was to do with Property issues and whether it was possible for similar action to be considered against Spain.
 
  • He will talk to Nick Clegg who, through his personal knowledge and experience of Spain, may be able to help us.
 
  • We asked for a dedicated FCO staff member with an ombudsman role to whom victims might turn and who would lend weight to our cases before the Spanish courts, but he explained that such a person would not have authority in Spain and directed us to a team of people already working in the FCO who may be able to assist – not with individual cases but with overseas property issues of public interest.  We still await their contact names and numbers.
 
  • At the conclusion of the meeting one of his aides, a member of the team working with Human Rights and Assistance Policy, encouraged us to contact him directly if and when necessary.



There were, and still are, disappointments.
 
  • Mr Lidington’s response to our written question sent prior to the meeting re financial help from our own government (bail outs, legal aid, etc) was that no help could be offered to victims at all. We had also suggested that monies could come through the EU from withheld grants to Spain as suggested in the approved Auken Report of 2009.
 
  • We then suggested that perhaps George Osborne and his Team might be approached to work on banking issues, but he was adamant that it was not possible and didn’t elaborate. It was apparent that financial aid of any kind was not for discussion.
 
  • Following the meeting we expected a cautious FCO Press Release. That is the nature of the beast. But it quoted Spanish figures of ‘happy Brits’ living in Spain which reads as a counter-argument to all we said at the meeting. This is no comfort to those of us who are still trying to get justice for the wrongs committed against us in trying to be a member of that ‘happy’ group. Whilst we are fully aware that Diplomacy has a public face and many private acts and we know that the Minister has to tread warily when it comes to matters Spanish (Gibraltar, fishing quotas, expansion of trade, etc.) this was a statement too far. It smacked of sycophancy. It can be read here: http://ukinspain.fco.gov.uk/en/news/?view=News&id=655255682
 
The figure of 850,000 Brits living in Spain is a Spanish one and can be refuted. We are all aware that many people have bought and live happily there, but many don’t. Due to the retrospective laws being threateningly imposed many live very uneasily. There are also many who, through changing circumstances of their own (age, health, financial, ends of contract, etc), want to sell up and move on. The property market in Spain is in the doldrums and people cannot sell. Spain is stuck and something has to give. The ‘something’ has to be the Spanish government.
 
We are not asking the Minister to ‘tell’ his counterparts in Spain what to do. But he must issue some forthright and persuasive arguments for the Spanish authorities to heed and act upon before British trade in the Spanish Property industry can resume. 
 
It is doing Spain itself no favours for our Minister to put out a statement such as the one he has (unless there is some Machiavellian reason of which we are unaware). And it certainly is doing us none because it increases our anger and pushes us further down the trust scale. We have very little at the best of times. I, personally, have almost none and have lost the will to have any.
 
  • Our promise to Mr Lidington was to send him a file detailing our arguments backed by hard evidence as soon as possible.  The completed, comprehensive 200+ page file has recently been delivered to the FCO. It covers Ley 57/1968, and the roles of the Judicial system and the Banks within it. It relates their roles in practice and demonstrates in detail how the Banks, numerous authorities here, in Spain and in the European Parliament have failed us in our efforts to purchase property in Spain. It contains actual figures. These are the necessary pieces of evidence to help the Minister see through the smoke-and-mirrors fabrications of the Spanish Government and enable him to get at the truth and reality of these dreadful situations in which we find ourselves. If he and his team are not able to help us after reading through this dossier then we know exactly where we stand.
 
There were other issues to be discussed which are being worked on as I write. There will be further updates from one or other of us when progress is made and agreed.

ruth





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03 Oct 2011 10:23 AM by belucky358 Star rating in North Yorkshire. 197 posts Send private message

Hi Ruth,

It was good to read the results of your meeting with Mr. Lidington and his three aides, in September, however I find it rather strange that these people appeared to be genuinely surprised when Keith brandished his mass of evidence, regarding the Bank Guarantees.

The reason that I say this is because in May I had a letter from the above gentleman, in response to an enquiry I made with my local MEP.

This enquiry oulined Ley 57/68, Bank Guarantees, and approximately the number of people involved.

Mr. Lidington's letter gave me information on how to contact several organisations, and explained how the British Government could not intervene in private legal disputes within other states.

I don't suppose I am the only person to bring this information to their attention, so for them to give you the appearance of being "genuinely surprised", ..................... well I am genuinely surprised !!!!!!!





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03 Oct 2011 11:26 AM by ruth Star rating in on a hill in rural L.... 117 posts Send private message

 

Hi belucky
 
The Minister and his aides were surprised by the ‘mass of evidence’ that Keith has produced – i.e. the sheer volume of it. So, no, it wasn’t strange.
 
Yes, the FCO team have done quite a bit of work on producing guidelines for prospective buyers in Spain and are well aware of many of the pitfalls based on our miserable past experiences. You can check out their advice on the FCO website and you will see that they’ve done a pretty good job. So far ...
 
Mr Lidington and his aides could not fail to be impressed by Keith’s work and that is what I was referring to. 
 
And by the way, no one knows the number of people involved in BG issues. The developments are so mired in corruption and mystery that it is IMPOSSIBLE to get to the truth.  And banks are not going to tell, are they?  This is why Keith’s work is so important and can be used so effectively because, however limited in the whole scheme of things, it cannot be argued with.
 
ruth




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31 Jan 2012 2:12 PM by Keith110 Star rating in the UK and I am lead.... 681 posts Send private message

UK's Minister for Europe to discuss Europe in 2012 in Madrid

 

30 January 2012

David Lidington, the UK's Minister for Europe, is due to deliver a speech on Europe’s place in the world in 2012 during a visit to Madrid on Wednesday 1 February.

David Lidington, Minister of State at the Foreign and Commonwealth Office. Crown copyright.

The Minister is due to discuss a range of issues, including promotion of jobs and growth, innovation, the Single Market, climate change and trade.

The full text of speech will be available on the British Embassy in Spain’s website after it has been delivered. The Minister will also take part in a twitter Q&A session following the speech.

Anyone who has a question on any of the themes raised in the Minister’s speech can tweet it directly to him via the Foreign Office’s @ukinspain account using the hashtag #AskMFE. The Minister will endeavour to answer as many questions as possible.

You will be able to follow the Q&A live below.

http://ukinspain.fco.gov.uk/en/news/?view=News&id=722789282




Dear Mr Lidington

 

You will remember last September we had a meeting at your office during which we discussed the issue of Bank Guarantees for Off-Plan property purchases in Spain.  We also provided you with a dossier of evidence in relation to Bank Guarantee Abuse in Spain.

 

As you are aware many innocent purchasers are at risk of losing their hard earned savings due to the fact that Property Developers and Spanish Banks failed to comply with their legal obligations under Spanish Law, LEY 57/1968.

 

The rights granted to the purchaser under LEY 57/1968 are of an 'inalienable' character.

 

The purchaser has an inalienable legal right to receive a Bank Guarantee or Certificate of Insurance for all off-plan deposits.

 

If the property is not started or completed FOR ANY REASON by the agreed deadline then the purchaser has the right to receive a full refund together with the addition of statutory interest.

 

The Banco de España is the supervisor of the Spanish Banking System.  Unfortunately it has failed to supervise the Spanish Banks with regard to LEY 57/1968.

 

As a result many purchasers were not issued with the legally required Bank Guarantees and to further compound the illegalities the Banks allowed the developers to withdraw the funds.  The purchaser’s inalienable rights granted by LEY 57/1968 have been violated and their money has been withdrawn and used illegally.

 

Even in cases where Bank Guarantees were issued, several Spanish Banks are refusing to honour the Bank Guarantees for no legal reason.

 

Despite having two meetings in 2011 with Spanish Government officials during which we presented them with evidence of the lack of control and supervision in the Spanish Real Estate & Banking sectors, they have failed to deal with the situation.

 

During our meeting in September 2011 you promised to raise this issue with your Spanish counterparts at every opportunity.  I trust this matter will be high on your agenda when you meet with Spanish Government officials in Madrid on 1 February 2012.

 

Yours sincerely

 

Keith Rule

BANK GUARANTEES IN SPAIN ACTION GROUP

 



_______________________

LEY 57/1968
CLICK HERE FOR THE BANK GUARANTEES IN SPAIN WEBSITE

       
      

fpag@btinternet.com




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31 Jan 2012 7:34 PM by ads Star rating. 4134 posts Send private message

Thanks for the update Keith.

The list of issues due to be discussed doesn't appear to include justice issues relating to the Banking sector then?

I wonder if this means that David Lidington will be unwilling to address this within the Q&A session?

If this is correct, and given the educational nature of your dossier of evidence during your meeting last September, it would be an unbelievable oversight (putting it politely!) to ignore this issue, especially with the recent public outcry against abuse within the banking sectors.

Politicians need to remain mindful that no amount of covering over these issues will halt European citizens's desire for greater accountability and transparency by the banks.

If politicians (of any political persuasion for that matter) wish to build consumer confidence in Europe and want to establish Europe's place in the world, then I fear that ignoring vital issues such as this will be at their peril.....





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01 Feb 2012 11:40 AM by mega Star rating. 73 posts Send private message

Dear fellow suffers,

                                    Please read the reply below that i received to a letter i sent to Diana Walis MEP,i like to bit about not being able to puy an amendment to the EU budget because of the precarious situation of the spainish finances,see below, I WISH I COULD SAY THE SAME TO BARCLAYCARD.

Thank you for your email.
 
We are familiar with Eye on Spain and some of the stories are frankly shocking.
 
Please keep us informed of the possible television programme. Publicity is important to keep pressure on both the Spanish government and the UK government.
 
An amendment to the EU Budget would be particularly difficult at the moment due to the precarious state of the Spanish public finances. However, you should know that there are many in the European Parliament who understand the Spanish land grab problem and will keep it in mind during any decision made on Spain and EU funding.
 
Please keep us informed of any developments with your situation, and whether you receive any advice from any of the citizens' action groups in Spain.
 
Kind regards
 
 
Sam Kynman
 
Office of Diana Wallis MEP
Liberal Democrat Member
Yorkshire and the Humber
 
Vice President of the European Parliament         
 
tel:  +32-2-284.7201
fax: +32-2-284.9201
email: diana.wallis@europarl.europa.eu
follow me on twitter at www.twitter.com/dianawallismep   Regards M EGA                             





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01 Feb 2012 5:34 PM by ads Star rating. 4134 posts Send private message

Just picked up this, for those who are Spanish speakers

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GuU58jPRXnI&feature=player_embedded

Can anyone translate the gist of this please? I didn't get home in time to see this unfortunately.....

Any observations Keith? Was any of this relevant to the Banking issues you identified?

I wonder if there will be an English version?

Sorry for all the questions!





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06 Feb 2012 2:12 PM by Keith110 Star rating in the UK and I am lead.... 681 posts Send private message

Hi Ads

You can read the text of David Lidington's speech here:

http://ukinspain.fco.gov.uk/en/news/?view=Speech&id=723580182

Nothing relevant to Bank Guarantee issues!  If he did raise the subject of Bank Guarantees with his Spanish counterparts then it must have been in private!

Maybe David Cameron will discuss the issue of Bank Guarantees and corruption in the Spanish Real Estate sector when he entertains Mariano Rajoy at 10 Downing Street on 21 Feb.........

Kind regards

Keith



_______________________

LEY 57/1968
CLICK HERE FOR THE BANK GUARANTEES IN SPAIN WEBSITE

       
      

fpag@btinternet.com




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08 Feb 2012 5:43 PM by ads Star rating. 4134 posts Send private message

Thanks Keith, but I despair......

What hope is there for enforcement of new rules and regulation within Europe, when the following is identified in a BBC article titled “ Did Germany sow the seeds of the eurozone debt crisis?”

 “ (see http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-16761087): a small section of the article  is shown below:

 There was, from the beginning, a way for the EU to police the economies of member states by following the rules that had been laid down for the single currency in the Maastricht Treaty.

It was called the Stability and Growth Pact, and it was not Italy or Greece that torpedoed it - it was Germany.

In 2003, France and Germany had both overspent, and their budget deficits had exceeded the 3% of GDP limit to which they were legally bound.

The Commission - then led by the former Italian Prime Minister Romano Prodi - had the power to fine them.

But the finance ministers of what was then the 15 eurozone member countries gathered in Brussels and voted the Commission down.

Romano Prodi says he was prevented from fining France and Germany for breaking euro rules

They voted to let France and Germany off.

They voted not to enforce the rules they had signed-up to and which were designed to protect the stability of the single currency.

Britain's then-Chancellor, Gordon Brown - still at this stage committing sterling to its love affair with prudence - voted with the French and German position.

The EU is often criticised for the power wielded by the unelected and allegedly unaccountable European Commission.

On this vital and, as it would turn out, pivotal occasion, the Commission ran up against something much more powerful - the combined will of the democratically elected governments.

"Clearly," Romano Prodi told me, "I had not enough power.

"I tried and they [the finance ministers] told me to shut up."

 The view was that, ok, if the big boys won't adhere and impose discipline on themselves, they're going to be more relaxed in enforcing the treaty [on us]. ”           Quote by Peter Doukas Former deputy finance minister of Greece

 

Quite an eye-opener, and with respect to Mr Lidington, the informative article referred to above doesn’t exactly inspire confidence in gaining any future enforcement of regulation, or necessary reforms, does it Keith, when self interested groups can ignore/overrule such stability mechanisms and thereby set a precedent for bad practice that has had such devastating effects on all European citizens?

European firewall…. What European Firewall?

Safeguards? What safeguards?

Earning credibility and an outward looking and secure Europe?

Well how do you accomplish that when rules are just ignored or overruled?

Let’s see some “transformational power” and leadership in the form of ensuring citizen's human rights, including rights to fair and timely justice that enforce the rule of law. Surely that’s not too much to ask for a civilised western society is it? 

It’s all too easy to espouse rhetoric. What we need as a basic starting point for all European citizens in Spain, for example, is workable and enforceable legal protection from abusive and corrupt practices whether by Politicians, Banks, Mayors, Town Halls, Developers, Lawyers, Judges, whoever.

All of the above are a sad reflection of what has been happening in Spain during this last decade, and all of the above requires effective and bold reform to create a workable, fair and respected system of justice. Only then will credibility be restored.

My concerns relate also to Mr Lidington’s mention of growth with links to the cutting of the number of regulated professions. Given the recent history in Spain we need more regulation in that regard, not less! Growth should never be at the expense of protecting citizens’ rights.

 

 



This message was last edited by ads on 08/02/2012.



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09 Feb 2012 10:32 AM by Keith110 Star rating in the UK and I am lead.... 681 posts Send private message

 


 


Hi Ads

It is amazing:

"They voted not to enforce the rules they had signed-up to and which were designed to protect the stability of the single currency"

The Spanish Government & Banco de España have acted in a similar way: They did not enforce the Law of the land - LEY 57/1968 and did not supervise the Banks in accordance with their mandate as Supervisor of the Spanish Banking System.

Unbelievable!

Kind regards

Keith


 



This message was last edited by Keith110 on 09/02/2012.

_______________________

LEY 57/1968
CLICK HERE FOR THE BANK GUARANTEES IN SPAIN WEBSITE

       
      

fpag@btinternet.com




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