Should Spain have one centralised Government?

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02 Nov 2012 2:35 PM by eos_ian Star rating in Valencia. 509 posts Send private message

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 I have always wondered where the benefits are in having so many Autonomous Governments in Spain, surely it would be more effcient to run the country via one centralised Government. The same applies to the Police Force, where many regions have their own "version" and the Guardia Civil. I don't think that having a centralised Government means that regions will loose their identity but surely with the current economic situation changes would make a big difference, the political structure of Spain is infact very expensive and on the whole poorly managed.

Does anyone have any views on this?



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02 Nov 2012 3:11 PM by camposol Star rating in Camposol. 1406 posts Send private message

I so agree-having autonomous regions means variance with inheritance allowances, tax allowances etc. Health is a major factor-how prescription charges are handled etc ,as are planning laws; The police seem to have their own rules no matter what region, and people are unfairly penalised because of it;for all these major concerns regulation must come from central government, otherwise there is great injustice.Centralised government would do away with confusion, time wasting and illegal practices. Autonomous regions could keep their own local/regionalcouncils as long as they all sing from the same hymn sheet!

 


This message was last edited by camposol on 02/11/2012.



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02 Nov 2012 3:22 PM by elaineG Star rating in Spain . 409 posts Send private message

As I said in another post:
 
Forget about privatisation: 
 
They could make very substantial savings if they centralised all services, not just the medical one, instead of having I believe 17 autonomous regions, duplicating goodness knows what.
 
And while they are at it, they could use just one language/dialect, instead of all the regional variations which involve significant translation costs.
 
And while I am on  my soapbox, if the EU also standardised to one language, the biggest EU expenditure, they (we) would  saving probably millions, if not billions.
 
 

 


This message was last edited by elaineG on 02/11/2012.


This message was last edited by elaineG on 02/11/2012.



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02 Nov 2012 3:48 PM by johnzx Star rating in Spain. 5242 posts Send private message

There are basically 3 police forces in Spain  (unlike  in the UK where there are 43, each independent from the others).
 
In Spain they are:-
 
The Guardia Civil,  who police outside the major towns and cities, the ports and the airports. They are one police service with one set of rules nationally. 
 
The Cuerpo National de Policia,  who are the ‘real police’ in the major towns and cities. They are centrally controlled with their HQ in Madrid., again with one set of rules.
 
And The Policía Local, who are employed by the local town halls but only enforce bye laws  (noisy dogs, licencing and property found /but not stolen, traffic in the town etc).  They have a power of arrest but having exercised it they must take the prisoner to National or Guardia for processing.
 
The National Police also provide some of the  ‘Regional Police forces’ and there are I believe just five other police forces in the Autonomous Regions.
 
Both the Guardia and The National police can be, and are,  transferred to serve in any  part of Spain.

 

 

It would seem that the Spanish system has considerably less duplication than that in the UK





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02 Nov 2012 3:49 PM by smugfk Star rating. 16 posts Send private message

02 Nov 2012 4:03 PM by camposol Star rating in Camposol. 1406 posts Send private message

So, why does one policeman say it is illegal to have a UK driving licence as a resident and fine a driver, and another, in a different region accepts it without problem? Or is it a case of the officer being ignorant of the law?





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02 Nov 2012 4:21 PM by Roly2 Star rating in Almeria. 646 posts Send private message

 I think you are missing the point a bit - I am sure Madrid would LOVE to have a central government.  The autonomous states where set up to make the disparate groups more manageable.   SO tell the Catalans and the Basques life would be easier for ex pats if they were centralised!!!   Then stand back!!!!!





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02 Nov 2012 4:28 PM by johnzx Star rating in Spain. 5242 posts Send private message

Or is it a case of the officer being ignorant of the law?

 

Camosol, you hit the nail on the head.

 

As a volunteer with the National police I have over the years asked questions about specific points of the law.    It usually ends up with two or more officers arguing about what is right.
 
On one occasion I asked “What constitutes an alternative.'  In Spain people who cannot in normal circumstances use a motorway, can if there is no alternative'
 
At the time I had a 49 CC motorcycle and if was easier for me to go from my home to the police station where I assisted, via an autovía .  
 
The officers could not agree on what constituted an alternative ( I km out of my way, 5 Km, 10km etc) and finally said that if I was stopped just say I worked for the police.
 
As you said, some, maybe many don’t know.
 
 But then it’s just about the same in the UK, ask a PC what sort of building one needs to constitutes a charge of  Burglary.  OK when it is a house, normal building etc, but what about a gazebo, a bandstand,  a caravan, a tent etc. They would not know.





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02 Nov 2012 4:56 PM by llegaralasestrellas Star rating in United Kingdom (BHX .... 58 posts Send private message

llegaralasestrellas´s avatar

Centralisation in Spain will not happen. Any party suggesting it invtes political suicide. Even regions without strong nationalist movements, like Andalucia and Canarias, still have extremely strong support for autonomy. Furthermore, regional autonomy is enshrined in the constitution, and messing with the foundation of the modern democracy is a political minefield.

I just don't see it being a political reality. Even if it was I don't see it as a cost saving measure. The costs and difficulty of transition would mean it'd take years to realise any savings, and would result in a huge number of job losses which would pretty much wipe out any savings by dumping more people into the welfare system and depressing consumer spending.

 

 





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02 Nov 2012 5:13 PM by johnzx Star rating in Spain. 5242 posts Send private message

..........................    and would result in a huge number of job losses which would pretty much wipe out any savings by dumping more people into the welfare system and depressing consumer spending.

 

Whilst I understand fully what you say, if a country continues to have unproductive ’workers’ employed in an inefficient system,  then how can it ever hope to have  a ‘new workforce’ available to take up productive employment, when it becomes available ?

 

If the UK had stuck with that policy they would have thousands of coal miners, ship workers, cotton workers, etc,  pretending to work in industries which had out lived there purpose.





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02 Nov 2012 5:17 PM by Roly2 Star rating in Almeria. 646 posts Send private message

 and instead we have thousands of local government and for that matter central government workers pretending they are doing something useful.





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02 Nov 2012 7:44 PM by BrianLA Star rating in Nottingham/Los Alcaz.... 16 posts Send private message

Spain isn't really a single country in the way we understand it - and there is no chance of creating such a centralised nation state. The BBC are currenty broadcasting a radio documentary series on this  - The Invention of Spain - which started last week and can be heard on the BBC website. It explains the historical context which makes this the case.

I agree with a lof of the points about more centralised services and more consistent application of rules producing financial savings, but remember even in our United Kingdom all the talk is of Scotland leaving and the nation being broken up. Scotland, of course, has always had a seperate legal system. My suspicion is that in Spain there will be more seperation in the future rather than less. 



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03 Nov 2012 7:24 AM by elaineG Star rating in Spain . 409 posts Send private message

Brain,
                       Don’t tell that lot up in Brussels what you think, they are hell bent on one United States of Europe. 
 
They already got their one currency (except for those weirdos in UK) which is crippling us.





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04 Nov 2012 6:25 PM by llegaralasestrellas Star rating in United Kingdom (BHX .... 58 posts Send private message

llegaralasestrellas´s avatar

Johnzx:

Whilst I understand fully what you say, if a country continues to have unproductive ’workers’ employed in an inefficient system,  then how can it ever hope to have  a ‘new workforce’ available to take up productive employment, when it becomes available ?

Spain has 25%+ unemplyoment, 50% amongst the youth. Even if a new industry sprung up to take on a "new workforce" it it still would struggle to make even a minor dent in the current number of unemployed. There is hardly a shortgage. Rather the opposite is true, there is a chronic and desperate shortage of jobs that is slowly destroying a generation and is the biggest single thing that will frustrate any government effort to reduce the deficit, no matter how many cuts are made.

You cannot fire people as a means of creating growth for several reasons:

* Inuefficiencies will be exacerbated not resolved. The civil service will beome less responsive as investment is drained, as absoltuely no effort is being put into actually investing into the serice to imrpove efficiency. This is exactly the same thinking that was employed by the British government in dealing with British Rail during the Beeching era, which achieved absolutely nothing. BR only started to improve when effort and resources were invested in modernisation rather than downsizing.

* Increasing unemployment will deepen the recession and the deficit. Firstly, thd odds of the newly unemployed finding work is minimal, so they will just go onto benefits, increasing the costs on the welfare system. At the same time their spoending power will have diminished drawing money out of the consumer eocnomy, deepening the recession and leading to more businesses closing and thus higher unemployment and so on in a vicious downward spiral.

* Tax revenues dcrease. Not only from the loss of tax revenue paid by the employese who are now drawing welfare, but from reduced IVA receipts, and the loss of tax revenue and increase in welfare costs associated with the drop in the consumer economy resulting from their spending power being removed from the equation. This drop in the soncumser economy makes it far less likely that any new industry is going to emerge as there is a cycle fo reducing demand for their product.

* Law and order, health and social services costs increse considerably, as long-term unemployment leads to deteriorating health, substance abuse and crime, patiularly when support is inadequate and medium-term prospects are minimal. his adds hugely to the strain on budgets in all these areas - as the experience of the UK in the 1980s clearly shows.

The Spanish civil service has several productivity issues, but these are related less to over-staffing than with the archaic way the beureacracy is oganised. Indeed, the Spanish civil service is actually less than half the size of that of the UK (2.6m, compared to ~6m which excludes Northern Ireland).

A way to increase this efficiency whilst encouraging growth is entirely possible, and has been advocated by many opposition parties.

* Shift to paperless working. By digitising a lot of cowkr currently done on paper, latency in the work flow can be reduced, speeding up decision making time. Digitisation also allows multiple workers to have access to the same information simultaneously, improving workflow. It also means that archiing and retreival of past records is quciker and more secure, and that physcial office space consumed can be reduced - allowing for redesigning of office space to improve workgroup interaction as well as a reduction in estate costs.

* Analyse work-flows. Spanish beureacracy has a large number of duplications and un-needed tasks. In some cases computerisation will smooth these but in others analysis of the whole process can render significant savings of workers time, freeing them to tackle other tasks which can make the organisation as a whole more responsive and efficient.

* Encourage telecommuting. Telecommuniting allows for savings in costs of running offices, as utilities consumption is reduced, and allows for the introduction of hot-desking. It also leads to generally higher productivity amongst workers and reduces absenteeism.

* Encourage job-sharing and part-time working. This can reduce unemployment and associated costs whilst maintaining are more resilient workforce better able to cover gaps in both short term absence (sickness, holiday leave) as well as longer disruptions such as maternity leave. This means less reliance on temporary workers which have higher per unit costs and lower productivity.

* Encourage early-retirement. Total social retirement costs are a fraction of those of redundancy costs even where headline costs appear higher, and leads to increased producitivity as older workers are replaced with younger workers with more up to date skills, faster rate of skill aquisition, lower absenteeism and greater career motivation. removal of them from welfare dependency also leads to a siginificant reduction in total social costs, and numerous social benefits both to themselves and also a larger number of dependents than workers aged 50+. This move is perhaps hte most imprtant as it brings benefit accross the spectrum of increased productivity, reduces total costs *and* reduces youth unemployment, even if replacement of retired workers is at a ratio below 1:1. A ratio of 1:2.5 is suggested.

* Cut fringe costs: I.e. eliminate "company" cars except in jobs where they are essential to the work directly performed. Where rail or air travel costs are payed, only pay for 2nd/economy class travel. Insteaf of meeting child care costs for individual employees, operate a creche instead. Not only are unit costs often actually lower, but it results in higher productivity as less time is lost due to absenteeism, when employees own child care arrangements fail - and makes it far easier for employees to pick up children for medical appointsments etc. It also bossts workplace satisfaction which likewise increases productivity and reduces staff turnover.

* Eliminate time based promotions: Replace promotion based on time served with merit based promotion. Employees who display exceptional compotence and are respected by their peers make more productive and positive management staff than time-servers. This also eliminates the problem in the Spanish civil service of "too many cheifs, not enough Indians". However rather than obediance to the company line, respect amongst ones peers and compotence rather than obidiance need to be fostered. Obediance soon becomes obstinance and conservatism, leading the organisation back into a rut. Again, the bringing in of fresh blood caused by voluntary retirement will also help tackle this issue.

* Tackle corruption. Huge amounts of revenue and productive effort are los tto low-level corruption. Having a strong external monitoring agency will recover more costs than it consumes, and it's work will be greatly aided by the ease of auditing introduced into the system by digitisation. However it will need full support from the top as well as from the police in order to be effective - and a policy of zero tolerence will be essential. One reccomendation is that in a confirmed case of corruption there is an automatic termination of current employment and a lifetime prohibition on the person found guilty of engaging in ANY public sector employment - as well as full loss of pension benefits. By maintaining the public sector as a good career path, an incentive is created to remain clean. Undermining and humiliating the public sector creates no incentive to remain in it - merely to grab as much loot as possible before one is downsized.

With these reforms a civil service could be created which would be more responsive and actually be an engine for growth by both demanding new products and services such as IT systems and office refurbishments to take advantage of new workplace spaces, but also by making lfie easier and more transparent. Businesses would no longer need to know who to bribe and hwo to speak too at the golf course, but would have a responsive, fast and transprent organisation to deal with. Business also would no longer be able to get away with so much violation of rules such as employing illegal migrants, evading taxes etc, which would also lead to growth as taxes are paid and legitimate jobs created, and smaller business without connections are more able to expand.

The civil service would not be under-staffed and un-motivated,  but would be cheaper to be run - yet also more motivated, younger and more dynamic. In terms of total cost to the economy, far more money would be saved, and with a far better social and economic outcome.

From the perspective of a former HR administrator, these changes are obvious - yet politicians are simply not interested because cuts are viewed primarily in ideological rather than practical terms, and econominally in only the most simplistic terms which lack both economic and sociological literacy.

 

 





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04 Nov 2012 6:52 PM by mac75 Star rating in Valencia. 415 posts Send private message

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 I disagree with  BrianLA, I do not believe that there will be more seperation in the future. Totally the contrary. The only regions with real nationalistic movements are the Basque Country and Catalunya. I really do not think that now there is any region apart from these two that don't feel 100% Spanish. Let's not compare any region in Spain to Scotland as it is a totally different kettle of fish and has no resemblance in the slightest. As far as Catalunya is concerned I still think that the majority of the residents in Catalunya do not want to leave Spain, and the basque Country doesn't want to be seprated from Spain in the slightest. At most they would ask for an independant State associated to Spain directly as Puerto Rico is to the United States. However, even that isn't a majority movement.

No region can survive on it's own, time has moved forward, the boundaries between regions are not real anymore and I do not see why Spain cannot work toward a centralised Government as a longterm project. There is still some discrimation between regions and all Spaniards should have the same rights, which they don't have at the moment and the only way to reduce costs and grow as a country. There is no purpose or reason to maintain the Autonomous Governments. It will not affect local cultures or traditions and right now the residents of Aragon feel just as Spanish a the residents of Andalucia. The Valencians will never look for independance and their is no nationalist movement in Valencia. It makes no sense to maintain the actual structure. It will reduce fraud, corruption, nepotism, and everything else that has been going on for decades. Spain has matured into a country and I think it is time now for everyone to rewrite the history books and move forward as one country, one government. The majority of the Spaniards nowadays have no idea of their country's history, the regions and the kingdoms. They are Spanish, full stop. The present sytem is madness and highly inefficient. There are far too many civil servants and far too mnay public buildings being maintained, the costs are extorsionate.

Maybe it will create aditional job loss, but it has to be done gradually. But if the Government can save money it can spend money in other areas to help create internal growth.

As far as the Police are concerned, the Guardia Civil is a military division, Ertzaintza is a Basque Country division, Mossos D'Esquadra are a Catalan division, the Policia Local are your parking ticket and traffic warden police and the Policia Nacional are the real police, and only up until recently have they started to share databases in real time. So it was a highly inefficient police force and I am not sure if it still is, but I'm sure it can be improved. I think all Police should be managed under the same rules of conduct and under one jurisdiction.

In answer to the question, YES I think Spain should move towards a centralised Government, for stability and economic growth.



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10 Nov 2012 10:01 AM by doedoe Star rating in Berkshire. 59 posts Send private message

 Being one of thousands of purchasers of New Built properties in Spain, and having waited 6 years for the Governing body of the small village where we chose to purchase our planned retirement home to grant the Habitation Certificate. We still have no Meters for the utilities, pay €80 a month community fee to finish the build the Builder has failed to complete, I fee it would be good sense to have a Centralised Government that can control the small village Governing body, in 6 years the power has changed due to elections of the Governing body and each time we have to start again because the new team need to start from the beginning. 

I just wish I had never bothered to purchase in Spain, I will to old to move into our lovely new home when a desision is made just simply to allow the Habitation Certificate then meters to be installed so that we can move on. over the last two years undesirables have rented unfinished apartments from the Builder who has not paid any community fee which pays the communial electric. his tenents ar all living expense free on the backs of those who have purchased & pay this high community fee.

MY ANSWER IS YES, ALL small governing bodies need to answer to a larger body when so many purchasers are suffering from a Builder who has not keep his end of the bargin and fails to provide the facilities that he was paid for. 

This would make a good safety net for All property perchasers and also help protect the Small Villages from un desirable non payers.


This message was last edited by doedoe on 10/11/2012.

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10 Nov 2012 11:33 AM by leoleon Star rating in Estepona. 38 posts Send private message

 I just love your humour Roly2, it just cracked me up. keep it up.

A sharp mind with a twist of irony, just like a nicely chilled G & T.

thanx

Leo





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10 Nov 2012 3:52 PM by GuyT Star rating. 511 posts Send private message

 @llegar..."Indeed, the Spanish civil service is actually less than half the size of that of the UK (2.6m, compared to ~6m which excludes Northern Ireland)."

UK Civil Service is under 500 000. Latest figures are 444 000

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/9085401/Francis-Maude-Civil-Service-at-its-smallest-since-war.html

http://www.ons.gov.uk/ons/rel/pse/civil-service-statistics/2011/stb---civil-service-statistics-2011.html





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10 Nov 2012 4:55 PM by doedoe Star rating in Berkshire. 59 posts Send private message

 The Spansh Nationals should not loose their job if a central government were to be in Spain. If all the current staff were employed to do one job and see it through then they would all be happy. I am sure not many government employees are proud of the current system in action.

6 years to provide a property with a correct certificate is just discusting, Why do the authorities keep changing there mind and allow the crooked Builders to get away with the crime they continue to enjoy. What is going on.

 

 



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12 Nov 2012 1:53 PM by Chopera Star rating. 16 posts Send private message

Should Spain have one centralised government?

It depends - if you extend the question to "Should the world have one centralised government?" the reasons against it might become more apparent. It is a bit academic anyway, since as long as they are part of the eurozone both the Spanish government and the regional governments are going to find themselves with ever decreasing powers. Certain things might best be controlled on a large/national scale (e.g. transport and energy infrastructures) but that's not necessarily the same as having one centralised government - they could be done privately. One shouldn't forget that government is essentially about making and upholding laws, and protecting/defending its people. If people decide they want the government to provide additional services then fair enough, but that's optional, it's not the defining feature of what makes a government.

Regarding the issue of civil service workers, it is difficult to do direct comparisons with the UK because some professions such as state school teachers are counted as civil servants in Spain, but not in the UK. Also it doesn't necessarily reflect the effective size of the state - you can still have a large state, with plenty of centralised control, but with few civil servants because it contracts out all the work to private companies.





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