Community Fees and Debt Recovery Problems

Our community is employing the services ot a well known debt recovery company to recover outstanding community fees debts. We have been using them for over a year, and initially things were great and we were receiving a significant amount of recovered debts.

Now, unfortunately, they have collected a serious amount of monies, and we are struggling to retrieve it from them. We are getting excuse after excuse, which has been ongoing for months. It is now aparent that there is something seriously wrong.

I do not want to mention any names at this point, but really want to hear from anyone (via PM if you wish, or on the forum) who may be experiencing the same issues. We are surprised that nothing has been already mentioned, however, someone has got to start the ball rolling and I hope this awakens some concerns with other communities.

I have sent you a PM Nigie

Barry

I also have sent you PM.

Guess we are all interested to know who this company is.

Good luck with getting your money.

Les

I understand at this stage you don't want to mention names but can you please keep us updated on progress if any

Our community also trying to recover outstanding fees through UK

There is now another post on the same subject again without naming the company

How many of these companies are out there?

How can Eye help us if companies cannot be named?

 Any procedure for the Community to go judicially to request yout unpaid fees needs to go through the agreement of Community of owners and be decided on the Spanish Court corresponding territorialy to the development.

These debts cannot be discussed in a UK Court. 

Oh yes they can Maria... look up the European Order of Payment legislation that allows debt originating in one European State to be pursued through the courts of the debtors country of domicle where that country is also a member state of the European Union.

Of course one could rely upon the cumbersome and horrendously slow Spanish court system and still not get the debt collected for perhaps 2 -4 years whereas following debtors to their country of domicile and proposing a court action following which they will have a seriously damaged credit rating brings about remarkable and swift results.

Barry 

 The forming of the debt needs to follow procedures of Spanish Horizontal Property Act, which stablishes Judciial overview by Spanish Judge before the debt can be considered actually a debt.

HPA says that the community at General Assembly has to approve the taking of action against debtors.

It doesn't specify what that action must be and nor does it say or imply that the debt must be acknowledged by a Judge to become a formal debt.

Of course anyone has the right to challenge the debt in court, that same right is afforded to any debtor in whichever country they are taken to court but the European Order of Payment act specifically allows someone with a debt in one member state to be taken to court in his country of domicile, clearly a Spanish national could not be taken to court in another European State for a debt that is originated in Spain.

This Law has revolutionised the collection of debt from non Spanish owners of property in Spain who once thought they were immune fro having to pay Community Fees.

Barry

Civil Procedure act offer a choice between Courts where debtor is and Court where property is located. Being the debtor a non resident person, and because a small-declaratory process is involved with Spanish Law regulating the debt, I would deffend that the civil procedure needs to be brought in Spain. Then, if the debt is finally recognised judicially, in Spain, the European Small Claims procdure may apply.

Then we have to agree to disagree Maria, the European Order of Payment law applies to all European Union Members and is very specific in it's mandate and operation... approval by the country of debts judicial system before taking a non resident debtor to court in his country of domicile is not required.

We have  successfully used the Law many times... the European Small Claims procedure is not the same law it is a seperate peice of legislation which we could use to take Spanish Nationals through a quick route system to collect Spanish nationals debt in Spain.

However it seems that Spanish Lawyers are most reluctant to use this route as it does detract from the revenue available from the conventional route...good news though is that a solicitor is not required to pursue small claims via this legislation... Fluent Spanish is though so we are cuaght in the net again but only ourselves to balme if we don't speak Spanish !

Regards

Barry

The original posts seem to have been deleted. Did I understand - from the deleted posts - that some Brit company was chasing up outstanding Spash community fees from owners living in UK and then not forwarding the monies received? If so, you'll be lucky to get them into any court, let alone a Spanish one. And if you do, they'll have long gone bust.

Dear All

Fighter 2 (Barry) is quite correct regarding claims in UK Courts

Also UK lawyers have posted on here to confirm

Problems arise when you use "debt collectors"

Our Administrators now using UK solicitors D R Sheridan LLP who have experience & success in recovering debts

Please PM if you require contact details

This procedure has only been successful in the UK and Ireland because as far as I am aware no debtor has yet challenged it through the courts. They pay up through the intimidation and threat process.

Until a debtor does challenge this procedure and obtain a judicial revue which will establish UK case law I believe Maria de Castro is entirely correct.

Just because the European charging orders are granted in a lower UK court, it does not establish their total legality in law where no judicial process has actually taken place in the country where the debt originated.

One day a debtor will challenge it and the whole process will grind to a halt. So it should because in both legal and moral terms it is wrong to use these charging orders where the legality of the debt has not been legally proven in the country of origin. By that I mean tested in a court of law before a competent judge.

The company I beleive you are all referring to has a creditors meeting next week, 30/08. If you need help PM me.

Shhe the EOS posting Kettlewell Solutions Ltd trading as Community Fees.

The problem with community debts is one that many communities wrestle with on a daily basis and I honestly believe that any measues that can be used should be applauded and I cannot fully understand why people complain about some of the tactics and use terms such as they pay up through the intimidation and threat process.

I am always surprised that once there is a legal process started somehow people manage to pay the debt as is proven by the success of some of these organisations

I see the real impact of this on the actual resorts and communities, run down areas, pools that cannot be openned and existing owners having to pay additional payments to keep things going, while the offenders often continue to rent their properties and enjoy the facilities

On many resorts the main offender is the actual developer who legally shiukd be paying the community fees on the empty unsold properties and own millions of Euro and using the Spanish system is lengthy and costly

In one resort where two thirds of the properties are still owned by the developer the owners have paid out this year and additional €1400 just to keep the facilities going

I understand the debt has to be  approved via the Administrator and Presidents, before the recovery process can be started so if a debtor owes the money, if thety can afford to pay, why would they challenge this through the courts or perhaps this is a too simple way of looking at things

How can European charging orders be granted in the first place from the lower UK courts, if the debt has never been legally proven in the country of origin? Is this not a legal pre-requisite prior to UK lower courts granting these charging orders from the outset? Isn’t this an inefficient use of court time if these cases are ultimately proved to be illegal (let alone the cost to communities or innocent consumers)? Perhaps I have misunderstood?

The whole system of purchasing property across members states (property rights/contract law/establishing independent disciplinary bodies with powers to fine and revoke practising certificates/timely law enforcement etc) appear to be in disarray to be honest, so it’s up to everyone affected to recognise/ communicate/pressurise political leaders of all persuasions to call for far greater consumer protection across member states, especially Spain, given the scale of problems identified.

If everyone became more pro-active in this regard and reported instances of this compromising nature via their MEP's (www.writetothem.com) to the European Commission, perhaps they would start to pay heed. Note, European elections are due in May 2014! Could, for instance, Presidents of Communities co-ordinate action and issue a communique amongst themselves?

Until the scale relating to failure of consumer protection across member states is recognised, then all purchasers will remain at risk and the message will sadly remain BUYER BEWARE.

Surely it's in everyone's interest to follow this through in large numbers?

For all concerned I would repeat my posting of last December - see below

We have continued success in debt recovery this year

Dear All

Fighter 2 (Barry) is quite correct regarding claims in UK Courts

Also UK lawyers have posted on here to confirm

Problems arise when you use "debt collectors"

Our Administrators now using UK solicitors D R Sheridan LLP who have experience & success in recovering debts

Please PM if you require contact details

For those experiencing problems with recovery agents I would refer you to my post last December - see below

Dear All

Fighter 2 (Barry) is quite correct regarding claims in UK Courts

Also UK lawyers have posted on here to confirm

Problems arise when you use "debt collectors"

Our Administrators now using UK solicitors D R Sheridan LLP who have experience & success in recovering debts

Please PM if you require contact details

We have had continued success in recovering community fees this year