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Bit of a holier than thou attitude there, gaula. The LFO is supposed to be issued to allow the property to have mains water, mains electricity and to put you on the list for council tax. What happens if you have mains water, mains electric and have been paying IBI for 10 years or so? However, still no LFO despite the council promising them, saying they'll issue a community license (which is a waste of time) but dont yet still quite happy to keep getting that IBI coming in on a regular basis. Are people just supposed to sit back on property they don't want because the council is still waiting for backhanders? And I should say more backhanders considering the thousands I paid out to get deeds and registry processes completed on a property diminishing in value every month. People try and do things the correct way, go through the correct procedures and trust people. You soon get to lose that trust when you come under a council like Orihuela Costa, I can tell you. I even paid the council architect and electrician hundreds of euros to get boletins and reports that turned out to be worth less than the paper they were printed on. Eventually they said the couldn't see a problem as there were contracts with the utilities and thevproperty was correctly registered so go ahead and sell. That still didn't stop them charging me a further 450 euro for a non existent mortgage to be taken off the registration documents and 200 euro more for a possible LFO to be issued in the future. So don't come and say people think they should be exempt from the correct documentation. Thank God I moved to an area where things are done correctly. If you want any more info on the corrupt, amateurish way this council carries out their duties, check out the threads on Colinas del Lago from a while back. If Fly380 still reads these boards I'm sure he could put you right on a couple of things as well.
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Fly 380 doesnt need to tell me anything we are neighbours , I own a property on his development .
Its not a holier than thou comment its a fact and i wish I had known when I bought . I would hate it if others got caught because I just said nothing .
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Fly 380 doesnt need to tell me anything we are neighbours , I own a property on his development .
Its not a holier than thou comment its a fact and i wish I had known when I bought . I would hate it if others got caught because I just said nothing .
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So your situation is totally different. You don't have utility contracts but you do pay council tax. The LFO is to get you connected to mains utilities and on the council tax register. If all these are in place, why does one stupid piece of paper make a blind bit of difference? Newbie says he is on mains so the solicitor was over reacting by advising against the sale. After paying thousands to get my deeds, even more to get the council to do something and watch the value of my flat go down from 136k to 56k in the 4 years it took me to sort it out and paying utility standing orders and IBI in those years I can do without the platitudes, thank you very much. It is a document that should be issued as a matter of course but incompetent councils are incapable of doing so whilst happy to keep taking the money. It is not passing the problem onto someone else if all the requisites for the document are in place. In your case, it would be totally different. So saying, I hope all you on 3 get it sorted soon. In my case it was a great worry and very stressful even though I'm notveasily fazed. Putting Atlas, Aroca and the Orihuela Costa councillors up against a wall and firing a few 7.62s at them may make us feel better but it won't get us that silly piece of paper.
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Some of the comments on this thread are a bit daft, but at least bobaol makes.
Gaula, how can you blame the innocent purchaser/would be vendor ? They are the victim of this outrageous system that should not be allowed to exist in the 21 Century.
You say "no decent lawyer would allow a sale to go through without an HC" which is true up to a point. But the fact is that "decent in Spain" is almost an oxymoron. (Certainly I am yet to find one in the Mazarron area and I am searching for a good solicitor to sue the last incompetent one !).
The situation that Newbie has outlined is truly disgraceful and surely the primary responsibility lies with the town hall and then higher up the line with the Spanish government and then the EU court for failing abysmally to put matters right.
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Don't argue with an idiot, he will drag you down to his level and beat you with experience.
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To cool the waters and clarify - I also live on the Bosque development we have community electric and water along with deeds but no license of first occupation .
I belive my neighbour was simply pointing out that if people keep on selling properties without the appropriate documentation they exaserbate the problem .The time is right for all in a messy situation (due to the southern blanca goldrush) to rectify the situation through the appropriate authorities so that no other purchaser is in the mess we were .
That doesnt mean blaming the innocent purchaser it means as the owner you have the responsibility to ensure you do not put another person in the same state you are in . Surely any fool can understand that!
I would rather burn my house down than cause 1 more person the stress we have been under for 7 years.
There are decent lawyers out there and thank god we have one who has achieved more in 7 months than that bunch of cowboys mentioned on this thread ,.
It is fair to point out we also have property on the Costa del Sol and in this area there is a law ( fully obeyed since 2008) that any seller has a legal obligation to produce all documents for a property prior to listing it for sale . This has cleaned up the problem,s in Marberlla and should be adopted here in Valencia region.
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Sorry Clarice but your posting has hardly helped. You say "I would rather burn my house down than cause 1 more person the stress we have been under for 7 years" which seems a bit dramatic and fanciful.
You also say "there are decent lawyers out there" - a few have been mentioned on EOS but generally speaking the standards are pathetic as is the legal system. That is simple fact. I've had few battles with UK solicitors, but at least you can get justice in the courts, not so easy in Spain.
We are all different and some might have lofty principles, which may be different in practice. But we do not live in a world where you expect everyone to be so noble and say, sell you a second hand car and tell you that it's about to give up the ghost. I reckon it's good to be a bit more pragmatic - caveat emptor and all that.
But our focus should be on giving a hard time to the town halls and politicians that allow this disgraceful mess to continue. That is the only hope, your suggestion will achieve nothing.
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Don't argue with an idiot, he will drag you down to his level and beat you with experience.
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Although some houses on Camposol were not legal ours is;I have it on good authority that No-one on Camposol has the Cof H. Obviously, as I am selling my house I hope this situation is sorted sooner than later.
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Buyer Beware is the very reason most clients are in the mess they are .
Clarice and I will leave this thread now . I cannot deal with fools who do not know right from wrong
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Gaula, your comment..."Buyer Beware is the very reason most clients are in the mess they are." is on a par with some of your previous statements and left me wondering if you actually understand the most fundamental legal principles.
You appear to have lived a sheltered existence. Bosque is rather remote, so perhaps that suits. But you and Clarice should think through your advice before you so liberally hand it out. The market comprises hundreds of thousands of people every year, so the few EOS readers you seem to want to bully into "doing the right thing" would just be out of pocket, or lose their sales. Nothing whatever would be achieved.
When the red haze has descended you might try and ponder again and perhaps you might realise that the problem is the ridiculous corrupt Spanish system. Not the victims, who are trying to escape it.
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Don't argue with an idiot, he will drag you down to his level and beat you with experience.
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Oh, well played, gaula. Storm off in a hissy fit whilst muttering about "fools" and retain the moral high ground. What you haven't explained is why someone who has paid the council almost a thousand euro to get a piece of paper which the council requires to charge you for their services is the one that doesn't know right from wrong. Maybe if you contacted the council to find out you may be doing a bit of good. Perhaps, while you're there, you could ask them for my thousand euro back plus the 10 years worth of IBI they've been charging me when they're not supposed to levy the charge without a habitation certificate. It's a piece of paper that's not worth a damn. Now, deeds (which the builders diddled me out of by taking out a mortgage on my property wiithout telling me) are a little more important. The fact that it cost me an extra 4, 000 euro taking the builders to court before I could get them and then yet another 450 euro to get the mortgage taken off the deeds at the registry doesn't count as pursuing justice in your book. The person who bought my flat, for well less than half what I paid for it, has legal deeds, legal registration at the registry office, legal contracts with the electric and water companies which is a darned sight more than I had for 10 years. The only thing he is missing is a lttle piece of paper which says the council can bill him for taxes which they already do anyway. He also has 200 euro of my money to pay said council for that piece of paper when they get round to it. So you're probably right, I am a fool. A fool for not just taking the money I was offered some years ago when I realised I had no legal documentation whatsoever. Still, you try and do things right, trust people to do things correctly and get ripped off left, right and centre. And the person who bought my flat was perfectly aware that no habitation certificate had been issued as I made sure he totally knew the score so it's hardly passing on a problem for which he is unaware. He was also not a newbie to Spain as he previously owned a property just up the road, also under Orihuela Costa and also without this piece of paper. So, goodbye, I really hope all your problems get sorted out soon as it's such a relief when it is. Just don't trip over your halo on your way to the council offices. EOS Mods, feel free to delete that last sentence if you wish as it is rather unworthy of me.
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I'm not sure much of the 'debate' on this thread has helped Newbie who has been placed in an impossible situation, most likely through corruption in his town hall, or negligence at the very least. There have been some positive statements about the need for corruption in Spain to be tackled and more people need to get involved, otherwise too many comments which seem rather quick to judge others.
Newbie there are over 300 officials in Spain being investigated on corruption charges (many of them in local Town Halls), your situation sounds in some ways familiar to ours or many others you can read about on this forum, or on AUAN Almanzora's website or any of the other organisations campaigning against planning abuse. Much of the current situation stems from the fact that Spain has autonomous regional governments who have lost the plot on proper administration of planning laws and keeping their town halls in check, or protecting the rights of individuals who buy in good faith with proper paperwork and/or guarantees of what they need to be secure in their property ownership. The different experiences of people living in different areas of Spain will simply reflect the different ways in which the regional governments and local town halls go about their business.
Whilst holding a Licence of First Occupation doesn't seem important to some people perhaps a reminder is needed of the demolition of Len & Helen Prior's house in Almeria even though they had all the correct paperwork, and that other properties are currently at risk of demolition due to administrative cock ups. In one case the provincial goverment of Seville has issued demolition orders against several properties even though the local administration has said they will be legalised! It's hardly surprising that any purchaser should expect their lawyer to seek both proof of ownership and proof of legality of any property they are considering buying.
I would think at the very least Newbie and his neighbours have a case against the adminstration for allowing this situation to happen. It seems that either officials in the Town Hall have been negligent or someone has been taking back handers to get the building licences through, in which case the builder is implicated too. In our case the original plans for 7 houses were magically changed to 198 apartments well before the properties were even marketed, we were presented with building licences which showed the apartments and had absolutely no reason to doubt their authenticity, the original plans have only come to light through a Guardia Civil investigation which has opened a whole other can of worms none of us had any idea about, having been presented with building licences, occupation licences and boletins for gas, electricity and water. It sounds as though the Town Hall in Newbie's case has tried to head off any investigation of its conduct by making threats and promises - we won't issue fines as long as you don't cause any trouble - isn't that just symptomatic of this whole mess? In our case, as soon as the Guardia Civil started to investigate the Mayor suddenly took an interest in finishing the sewage works in an attempt to keep his own ass out of jail, so they are now finished but no sign of the water company showing any sign of taking them on so we are no further forward with establishing a permanent water supply.
As I have suggested previously, the Abusos No organisation in Valencia may be best placed to offer help and support to Newbie and his neighbours, along with the helpful suggestions made by Acer and others about more people putting pressure on the administration - all the way up to national government - to put its house in order. AUAN Almanzora are currently supporting a case which is going to the European Court of Human Rights and a donation to the legal fees for this would be a good way of helping as it is a case based on the Right to Property which will help everyone struggling with property issues in Spain.
Bobaol you are right to say the deeds to the property are crucial, and if a property is registered at the land registry (which provides the information from which the IBI bills are generated) but has not been issued with a licence of occupation this just proves that the system isn't working in favour of the citizen, doesn't it.
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