Ads: Fully agree with you on the below:

Any conveyancing/judicial system that does not consistently enforce INALIENABLE/cancellation rights and return of monies according to existing law and in a timely fashion that respects the due process of law, or fails to recognise the requirement for mandatory provision of LFO’s according to Ley 57/68, whilst continuing to place innocent purchasers at risk in this way without taking into account all of the above, is bound to beg the question, is this systemic breakdown and a threat to the rule of law by not adhering to the principal of legal certainty nor entitlement to effective judicial protection?. 

Poedoe,

Further to your posting today on the thread titled “Non-resident taxes – confusion” (http://www.eyeonspain.com/forums/posts-long-20090p1ondak-.htm ) have you seen this website and comment dated October 2010, which makes mention of your builder Idearco (see below)?

If ever there appears a classic example of what can happen in Spain when licences are not made to be compulsory at the point of completion, then this is it!

I have to ask the question once again however, is this an example of non adherence to the principle of legal certainty (non-adherence to the rule of law) when existing law Ley 57/68 stipulates that LFO licence is a pre-requisite to completion?

http://www.eyeonspain.com/spain-magazine/spain-corruption-marbella.aspx

Carol said:
05 October 2010 @ 15:56

It is a good article, but not enough is said about the scandal effecting people in other areas, for example in Rafal/Almoradi, through corruption people have been left with property which doesnt have certificates and isnt completed, despite the notory confirming that money was being left by the builder Idearco with the notory until he could prove he had finnished the building, and that he had received all the certificates for the completed building. He took money from purchasers in cash at the notory when signing, to pay for utilities, but left the purchasers to pay his unpaid bills, keeping the cash himself.
The builder was given permision to build, despite the building having no entrance on the road, making it difficult to aquire habitation certificates.
The building isnt finished, we need a road some street lights and pavement, he left many problems which as owners we had to and are still paying to have put right yet the builder stills owns property there and does nothing to help.
He was handed back his money from the notory, apparently he had shown documents given to him by the previous town hall, proving that the building had certificates and was completed.

The present town hall claim to have no money to sort out the mess, it is costing the owners, most who cannot afford to, with the expence of trying to sort out the mess and the onus is being put on the owners of taking the guilty people to court, ordinary people havnt got the money for this.
The guilty parties should be made to pay by the Spanish government, they have commited the crimes yet appear to be protected, while poor people are left to suffer.
The builder and other guilty parties should have been forced to hand back the monies paid to the puchasers, instead they are allowed to transfer money to other accounts and claim they have no funds, while still trading under another name.
I would never reccomend Atlas the company who assured us nothing could go wrong, with money left with the notory and town hall as an assurance to complete the build if the builder couldnt complete himself for some reason. They said they had worked closely with the builder for years, but considering he had left previous purchasers from other buildings in the past in the same predicament, I would sugest that Atlas were aware of what was to come. They tried to get us to hand over the last stage payment and power to sign over to them after telling us lies about the builder being ill and unable to go to the notory, we found out he never attended, it was always his wife who signed.
 

For those interested in liabilities of Notaries:
 

http://www.eyeonspain.com/blogs/costaluz/14178/Legal-tip-1241--NEW-Court-Decission-on-Liability-of-Notaries-in-a-property-purchase.aspx

Camposol on 13th April last you posted:

I repeat no one has a CH at the moment. Some have a bit of paper but it is not the actual thing. Ask the Camposol Residents Association!  Apparently A will soon, and B and C towards the end of the year. You cant just get one. My house is for sale and the estate agent has not said t iwill be a problem to sell without one.

Is there any progress yet?  I know you had a visit from the local mayor, but didn't hear any detail, just interested to know if Hab Certs have now been issued please.  Did you sell your place OK?

No property can be sold without FOL.

A couple of EOS legal tips of help:

Legal tip 1075. Registrars, Notaries and Planning regulations 
02 December 2013 @ 12:40 
 

If no property can be sold without FOL then why is it that the judiciary are not consistently recognising purchaser's rights to "cancel the contract with full devolution of amounts, interests, and compensation of damages" when an FOL has not been issued according to the mutually agreed end date as stipulated in a purchase contract Maria?

Rulings that fail to recognise these purchasers’ rights appear to contravene the principle of legal certainty, so does it follow that any attempt to enforce such contra legem rulings would be in contravention of the rule of law?

acer- we understand  that  C of H s will soon be available. However, we have been told that before, but here's hoping!

Properties continue to be sold without problem

No luck with selling as yet, but hope 2015 will be THE year!

2015 still no further forward, I have gone through the posted items below and it seems that still no-ne knows what is going on. Just the crooks that continue to trade in the same way. Maria has kindly given many explanations but can't tell us when we will be able to live our retirement in peace in the apartment we purchased 8 years ago. Promises, promises from our Administrator but no action by the SPANISH Courts which have for many years been charging our complex community for the legal work to bring the Builder Architect to court.

This Builder is still trading, building more properties and obviously breaking the Law yet he is not suffering like so many of his customers have. 2 years ago we were told that another of the complexes he built had received the Habitation Certificate. 9 years after the first purchaser moved into the complex.

Now 8 years after purchasing what we believed to be our Spanish Dream, spending our entire savings on this wonderful apartment. At the age of 74 years how long do we have to wait before this so called Dream will come true. yes we did spend a few holidays in our apartment, not for the last 3 years though. Why would anyone want to spend a holiday in a place that brings so much worry. Lets hope the HCs will be be granted so that we can feel safe and happy in the apartment we long to use. Sadly every year that goes by makes the waiting very hard to bare.

The so called legal team we hired are obviously still earning a living and continue to tell porkys. Lawyer, Notary & Agent. All paid in good faith by hard working purchasers. Organising mortages which the purchaser will not want to pay if they also suffer as many problems previous customers  are suffering. 

What is the Spanish Government doing about these shameless so called professionals, using legalised practice's  that so many purchasers will trust will be the right way to go.

Poedoe, your situation is appalling but possibly refelects hundreds if not thousands of others.  You ask...what is the Spanish Government doing about these shameless so called professionals, using legalised practice's  that so many purchasers will trust will be the right way to go...the answer seems to be b*****-all.  They don't seem to care.

Camposol, I believe there is a new Political party, the CDIP, Camposol and District Independent Party who have been established to try and win seats on Mazarron Town Council at the elections in May.  I do not know their exact agenda but the gist is that it is to apply pressure and give these matters, missing Hab Certs etc, a high profile.

Do you know if they are winning much support?  To my way of thinking this seems a superb idea and it is great that some people are actually doing something, but are they getting their message across?

If house's in Spain are still being sold with no Habitation Certificate, and for fact I know they are, then whats all the fuss about? Some that were built about 15 years ago never had them from day one, and were never issued with them even after, yet still had all the services, and possibly sold over and over again...Without them or any resulting problems.

If you can sell your house without one why go to the expense, time and trouble of getting one. 

Habitation Certificate? after 8 years of signing the purchase agreement, a lawyer who did not tell the truth and give us the incorrect information, The Agent who also failed to give the correct information and the local council who sit in there office making uswait..

Our  Administrators who have worked hard with the community President's, still unable to supply the information. We are totally confused. Who knows the correct information ???.

It apears to us that the Head of the Spanish Government and its afficials are the group that need to get this sorted out and to help thousands of purchasers like us,.

After obtaining the information from all the correct people and paying the fees they charge you would think we were on the correct path. Builder ceased to trade the month after we completed our Purchase in 2008. The Notary did not I advisehold on to the final payment & the matched payment from the Builder to insure the complex was completed. (why? the builder told the notary the work was completed)(theBuilder lied because the road was not completed. the street light were not fitted, the meters were not fitted, The Builder had a huge debt owed to the Utilities which until it was paid we were cut off. He had charged each purchaser €900 cash for the utility Meter's.) The Builder removed the equiptment that controlled the water on the emergency supply after 14 apartments were Sold & ocupied by residents and non resident owners.

We now pay €80-100 each in community fees monthly to be able to keep the complex in good order with a live-in caretaker. The Local council will not give the HC or FOL because of all the incomplete work. Yet most of us pay the local Sumo Tax & Council tax.

I advise "Don't complete until all these areas are sorted", 2015 now 8 years since many owners have completed yet we are still in the same position. The SPANISH GOVERNMENT need to sort this out. Who else do we turn to other then the Spanish Administrator who has worked for 4 years to sort this out.

This message was last edited by Poedoe on 08/01/2015.

This message was last edited by Poedoe on 08/01/2015.

Baz1946, perhaps you are unfamiliar with the situation.

It's very simple - with all the ghastly stories about properties in Spain being bulldozed, people made homeless and life savings being lost, land grab etc some potential buyers are perhaps unsurprisingly put off and those that do buy are both highly selective and wary.

Several EOS contributors have made the comment "don't touch it with a barge pole!" and this is often the advice received from Spanish solicitors.

This may or may not be good advice, but it certainly has an effect.

In practical terms it means that in this rotten market you have an even greater struggle in finding a buyer and you are probably obliged to drop the price even further.  The fact that it is often just down to uncaring Town Hall bureaucracy just adds to the frustration.  I hope this clarifies.

Acer.

I am indeed very familiar with how Spain operates and so should anyone that wants to do any dealings in Spain, as we know Spain loves black money so if you feel the need to operate in Spain it's either do it that way, or don't do it at all, of course thinking what might happen in due course if you do.

Having that said I have bought and sold houses in Spain for many past years, the last one I sold was Nov 2011 (I think it was 2011) having used that one for 8 years ourselves and our kids, the previous houses I sold never had a H/C, and no buyers asked for one, or mentioned them,  and to be honest i didn't even know they existed up to the last house sale when the agent who sold the house asked me about it, so I asked my Solicitor who had done, and still does all my dealings in Spain about the H/C, she said they were never issued because they were never needed, now if thats true or not I have no idea.

I told the agent this and if she wanted to confirm it get in touch with my Solicitor, if she did again I have no idea, but the house sale went through within a couple of weeks with no problems at all, and I certainly didn't sell the house cheap, in fact 10,000€ more then one a few doors along, and didn't take any price drop either.

I do own two houses in Spain now both bought with no H/C. But I would make the point that I have never bought anything " Of plan" so to speak, I wont buy anything I cant see and touch, and by the sounds of most of the problems I hear about these do seem to be the one's that give and get trouble. As you do know some folk buy a house from a great looking photo with blue sky and what it will look like in six weeks time as opposed to the field it is now.

I don't think for one moment that I have been anymore lucky or unlucky then anyone else with house sales, it's just been this way.

Baz1946,

We're all in the lap of the gods when we buy and sell property.  But for the paperwork issue is more potentially problematic now than it was in 2011.

In theory Notaries are supposed to refuse to allow a transaction without a Hab Cert, clearly this doesn't yet happen and may never do so.  But I can totally understand the frustration of those who are trapped and have their lives made miserable by this absurd stupid system.

Any "civilised" country within the European Union has to recognise their commitment to abide by the rule of law.

The European Union has stipulated in a recent mission statement that they will concentrate their efforts on safeguarding the rule of law. It's up to all of us, good professionals and individuals alike, to work together and ensure that we effectively capture evidence and keep them to their word.

Without adherence to basic principles of this nature, the following ensues.... (all of which is sadly indicative in Spain).

Administrative chaos (this thread acts as a classic example), inconsistent enforcement of existing law, spiralling insecurity relating to property rights. growing instances of professional negligence, downward spirals of corruption, failures to regulate Banks, lack of accountability due in part to failures by professional bodies to monitor and regulate their own members, the list goes on and on.

And the result.... a sad self inflicted demise with knock-on effects impinging "growth", decline in living standards, divisive protectionist policies instead of civilised advancement of collaboration and coexistence....

Maria spelled out what should be happening when she refered to the lack of regulation during this past decade and beyond i.e. New times: collaboration: all inspired by a natural principle of coexistence. If not followed: ruin and more ruin... "

Selling my property an I have a HC. I have read some articles that say they last for 5 years others say 10. Mine is just over 5 years old. Does this mean I have to buy a new one to complete the sale or is it the buyers responsibility to obtain one?

What does your solicitor say? 

From your last post you have one and they want big fees

Still waiting for his reply and want other peoples opinions / experiences to make sure I'm not getting ripped off.

Verona,  I believe you're unduly concerned.  If you had a Habitation Certificate when you bought your property you don't need a new one or a renewal of the existing.  That does not happen. 

It's not like an MOT on a car where after a few years you need a new one each year.  More like an NHBC guarantee - issued once upon certification of the new build and is not updated.

The articles you read may have been referring to the situation where a different form of HC was issued to a purchaser for a property that previously did not have one.

But from the facts you provide all is good and there is nothing for you to do on this aspect.

Verona, I answered also in a previous thread. What town is your property in? You should need a new license if you had one when purchasing unless you had an extension done to the property, needing a new building license etc.