Spanish court suspends demolition of British couples home pending appeal to ECHR

In response to AUAN comment: the EU is NOT taking an interest in this issue. Multiple petitions to the European Union have been rejected on the basis that no laws of the European Union have been infringed even though we would argue that the effect on the free movement of capital within the union has not been properly explored. 

The EU doesn’t care, it is simply a bunch of nodding dogs who’s only interest is ripping as much meat off the communal bone as possible for themselves – why should the other 27 (or is it 28 now?) care about Spain – it’s of no benefit to them.

There is no such thing as the European Union and if anyone thinks there is - they must be totally bonkers! One single market – no borders, we hear from the sadly deluded ‘pros’ but in a community where each country can adopt their own policies and ignore the EU rules……. How can it be?

It is a ‘union’ that tells you we are one single market but if that the case why do businesses in the EU have to register for IVA/VAT with every member state they sell to? It’s much easier to deal with and export to countries outside the EU.

If you were to ‘export’ from UK to all the ‘member states’ then you need to register in each individual country for IVA – that means over a hundred VAT/IVA returns every year in 27 or 28 different languages with 28 different sets of rules and laws to be bound to, or you will be punished if you get it wrong. Oh yes  - and itrastats among other EU enforced documents to be delivered to each country on top.

Some temporary VAT/IVA inter-country agreements have been in place for over 20 years – who in a right frame of mind would sign a binding contract without the terms and conditions being agreed beforehand? Twenty Seven or is it Twenty eight different government ministers did!

What chance then of any fair treatment or a reliable enforcement mechanisim  in Europe for those poor people who have been conned out of their life savings by a corrupt, unworkable and wholly screwed up system in Spain.

Let us recap on the history of the Prior case in Vera. The Priors obtained full licenced approval from the Vera Council. Without the Prior's knowledge the Andalucian Provincial Government took issue with the Vera Council who argued the case with each other, for over 6 years. By the time the Priors were informed the arguments had been advanced to a point of almost conclusion making it very difficult for the Prior's lawyers to put forward acceptable challenges. It can now be argued that the Andalucian Government were so intent on exercising their authority that they ordered the demolition when an appeal had been lodged with a higher court authority, and was yet to be heard.

Following the demolition subsequent court action has established that the Vera Council should recompense the Priors to, I think €650,000., but the Vera Council, for legal reasons, are seeking to join the Andalucian Government in their defence action. In the meantime the Priors have been offered alternative accommodation by the Vera Council to a level of €5000 per annum but none has proved acceptable, and I believe the Priors remain living in the garage of their demolished property.

This case will remain a stain on Spain's reputation for fair and judicial behaviour for a long time to come, and the fact that this recent case from Albox has been referred to the EU for a ruling does indicate that the Andalucian Government may just have learned a lesson in authoritarian governance. My hope is that the couple from Albox  will gain the security of tenure of their property and a sufficient precedent will be created for this situation to be avoided in the future.

The Priors, Len and Helen Prior, were people who wanted to retire to Spain - a warm bit of Europe. They had their home demolished in front of their eyes (for political reasons - Vera was PA rather than PP or, more importantly, PSOE. The house was not on the beach, not in a flood-plane, not in front of the AVE they eventually gave up building anyway and not on the motorway). The couple decided to stay put and live in their garage which had a different building licence. They've been there - in the best London Blitz tradition - for 69 months. A regular feature on British TV.

In that time, I would suggest, they have lost Andalucía billions in 'Blimey, I'm not buying there' sales, and countless jobs.

Who got the short end of the stick - the Priors or the Almerían economy?

Lennox,

You appear to have posted a very realistic response to my recapitulation of the Prior's situation although I am not sure if you are correct in apportioning blame to the PSOE. Certainly I think that the Andalucian Provincial Government are politically motivated and their bias towards PSOE may well be relevant but at the end of the day this is a local political situation involving the Vera Council which I believe began as a straightforward licencing application which the Andalucian Government challenged for reasons of land allocation, and an attempt to exercise some level of authoritarian behaviour towards a lesser authority. History will indicate that it was a classic case of stupid, shortsighted authoritarianism on the part of the Andalucian Government. It is also possible to suggest that the Priors were an easy target, But hopefully the Andalucian Government may be brought to realise that Spain must live up to higher standards of governance than they have hitherto displayed, and that Spain must be steered to a more equitable form of justice. Spain has taken much in the way of funding from the EU. Perhaps the EU must show that it should demand some degree of reciprocation from Spain in its observance of better standards of governance.

I believe the Priors will eventually get a satisactory solution to their problems, although they can never get their property back but at least if they are eventually handed a sum of €650,000 as the Courts have directed then they will have been given the opportunity to bring solution to their current problems. I wish them well. 

I just wish all people suffering the terrible stress and ill health created when facing the possibilty of losing one's home total success in their endeavour.  These are honest, normal working family people who acted in good faith and trusted their advisors.  I know that corruption is simply endemic in Spain.  We had our sea view built out and could do nothing about it despite showing clearly that it was illegal to build opposite us as we were the last building in the zone.  I can quote other examples but won't bother but one thing I will say is after selling our place to the builder we were in dispute with (at about what it was worth 20 years ago) we have not found another suitable place but we did find places where our lawyer said, "Whew, In simple terms for you to understand, yes it has planning permision from the local department.  But this in itself is not enough.  It is like in England having permission from just a local council but also it needs it from the City Council and maybe also the County Council. Some areas need permission from three levels of government BUT if you use a local lawyer like myself to advise you then there is no excuse for them to allow you to buy any property or project that would not be completely legal - just go slowly!".  So just as Surveyor said, the local "professionals" are the ones who are to blame here. There again WHAT A STUPID CONFUSING SYSTEM.which just ensures a few more layers of pigs with their snouts in the trough. 

Question is Manx – How does a country with such a corrupt government a total disregard for any international laws along with  an antiquated legal system expect to survive?  The country is absolutely on the bones of its bum and judgement day is only being postponed by others cruelly supporting it.

It’s like an old building, the longer it is left to deteriorate, the  longer, more difficult  and costly it is going to be to restore it

With wages being reduced, unemployment at unprecedented levels, the cost of living rising and banks not lending, then the powers that be must rely on inward investment to reinvigorate the property market and construction industry, simply because Spanish buyers are just not there – at any price.

Investors and fund holders dare not risk their clients money in Spain no matter how cheap investment property becomes – it’s not cheap if it has to be demolished or a sudden demand drops on their desk for a huge unforeseen sum of money for ‘infrastructure’. So the uncertainty and muddy rules, bent lawyers and corrupt councils deter investors buying – at any price.

Private buyers who have done their homework are reluctant to buy for the same reason. Forums such as this and the UK press are full of horror stories of innocent people being ripped off in Spain with no end in sight to alert all would be buyers to the  dangers of the Spanish property jungle.

If we all know the reasons why Spain is in this awful mess and why it is going to get worse unless some radical changes take place very quickly – why doesn't the government realize?

Nero fiddled while Rome burnt.  Rajoy fiddles while Spain drowns in a sea of apathy.

Woodbug makes his case well. Underlying any society is the rule of law. Within Spain there is a culture amongst its legal profession that refuses to accept change. How much longer must we wait to see the concept of "black money" discarded by the legal profession? Until the legal profession are seen to be accepting necessary change in their behaviour and activity the future for Spain does not look good.

The same can be said of politicians. Rajor is looking weak in the aftermath of recent scandals involving the PP and the PSOE regularly look foolish in the naeve way in which they seek to put their opposition policies forward. Not much change can be seen in the near future.

Too true Woodbug.  But alas everywhere I look I am depressed and wonder if there is any hope of improvement.  I flew into Birmingham the other day and it was like Taliban Central.  My firend is in hospital there and it's literally like the third world.  The beds are all full of immigrants, the doctors are mostly useless - and I mean one poor Aussie girl was the only doctor who I would say knew more than me about medicine and I know virtually nothing!  She was apparently doing everything and other doctors would just say, "This is not in my realm of speciality". 

I feel sorry for my kids and grand kids and more so for my Spanish friend's kids as it just does look hopeless. Well the other problem is that people are not realistic about prices of properties.  Spanish prices are still way too high.  My friend just bought a place in Florida (he lives in Spain but his wife is American and they both speak fluent Spanish) which he is raving about. He paid €25K equivelent and has used local cuban artisans to re-furbish it to a very high standard gfor another €20K. he said in marbella it would be €400!!!  My daughter just bought a beautiful black and white 5 bed / 4 bath cottage in Worcestershire. 2 minutes to Waitrose and etc. and 10 minutes to Worcester where there is little unemployment and 5 minutes to the motorway to get into Birmingham etc. and she paid 500K for it. I recently had an offer of €595K turned down for a villa in Marbella priced ridiculously at €750K - the reason they turned down my offer is that it's been on the market for 4 years at €950K and then €850K and that the new price is as low as they will go!  I see so many "new" 5 year old properties becoming derelict it just seems crazy and once again - I can't see the end. 

It is real scary Viva, the black economy in Spain is huge and has been encouraged by the legal profession in respect of house purchase for many years where a percentage of the purchase price is paid by the buyer in a brown envelope, directly to the lawyer on completion. The winners are the lawyers and the seller. The loser is the buyer who has to account to the authorities for the shortfall at some future date.

The black economy in Spain is estimated at  e50bn per annum with a loss to the IR of around e18bn (nobody knows the extent as it’s  impossible to establish the true figures).

Of course employers are responsible for a healthy slice of the ‘black’ but the cost of employing staff in Spain  is huge and the rules are draconian, although  recently a few feeble attempts have been made to relax the inflexibility. The question to be asked is ‘If there was no black, would the unemployment figure be much higher in Spain than they are now, as employers could not afford employees in these difficult times’?  Of course it’s a Yes!

I don’t condone employers for swerving the bogeyman, if it’s a case of sink or swim then you will opt to swim, we all would -  and the government only has itself to blame. If a company finds its turnover dropping it looks at the problem and will lower product prices and change policy to meet market conditions and customers demands in order to remain in business. The managing director doesn’t bury his head in the sand and expects the problems to go away like the government appears to be doing, nor can he access unlimited funds to finance a lavish life-style with the certainty that he will become a very wealthy man along with the guarantee that he won’t be leading the company in 5 years time when the proverbial hits the fan!

The difference is the MD would be held to account by shareholders and government watchdogs and any impropriety on his part and its Hello to the Jailer. The politician and the lawyer?................ ah well!

You would think that the Spanish might be open to the American system of employment (for example). Easy hire, easy fire. No endless diplomas translated with an Apostille from the Hague. No job protection and no guilds controlling prices and employment opportunities. No nepotism or 'cables'. No notaries. No 'three levels of government'. No 14 month payments per year. No jobs-for-life funcionarios. Lower the taxes for self-employed. Ease up a fraction on the corruption...

The Americans have about 7.5% unemployment. Here in Spain its 27 and in Andalucía, its 40%. Turn Andalucía into a European version of Florida, with ample attractions for the elderly (if you can just bear to not rip them off). It's not like we have any other ideas here. The unemployment rate by the way in South Florida is 7.1%.

To be fair Lenox you probably speak for most of us on the forums who have probably had to earn a living for many years with nothing but problems and difficulties put in our way by scroungers who work in local government and couldn't earn an honest living if they had to yet are too stupid to realise that it's small businesses who pay their wages.  

And how right you are about a comparison with Florida.  I could never understand why Disney went to Paris - watched too many of their own cartoons to grasp reality I think.  Still, we are where we are and what you say about slow progress is all we can hope for.  

Moan, moan, moan!! Get some positives. There are good lawyers out there, there are bargains to be had, there is a need for multiple layers for checking and balances. If there is a problem, be positive and find a solution. e.g. For employers, check 'Zero Cost'. 1 year contract linked to training, no Social insuranceto to pay by either the employer or employee and at the end of the year, or sooner if it doesnt work out, no redundancy payment. The contract can be renewed annually for 3 years and then if it becomes permanent, the social security payments are still reduced.

Get off your butt and do something about it instead of just moaning. If you've been ripped off or negligently advised, get a good awyer and go after the offender. Go to the equivalent of the Consumer advice people, (can't remember the name just now) and get proper, informed advice and support. Its because people won't stand up for themselves, firstly by checking everything before they buy, and secondly after they've been taken advantage of if that happens, that the bullies get away with it. The legal system is horrifically slow, but it does work and there is action by the profession to change it, but they need support from the general public, of which all expats are part, to add weight to their proposals.

Well Surveyor, you make it sound so simple, so why didn’t we think of that.

Have you any idea how these poor people must feel after finding out that they have been robbed by all those alleged professional, licensed and presumably qualified firms and individuals, not to mention the trained and public servants whose only goal is to make money from collaboration

Can you imagine the trauma of waking up one morning to find your dreams shattered and your life savings about to disappear? Perhaps you, in your wisdom would be kind enough to advise those victims how exactly they should go about  ‘finding a good lawyer’ having already been duped by a supposed good lawyer, innocently working on the premise that all qualified and registered lawyers are ‘good’

How can one chase bankrupt or absent defendants, how can anyone expect to fund such a pointless exercise when all their money has been stolen, how could anyone have the confidence to enter into litigation against a country that has already failed them and with such complicated rules and systems  that works at a snail’s pace.

If you had been granted planning permission and given a license and then the powers that be changed their minds, or the officials that were involved had ‘gone’ – would you be happy to take action knowing that the ranks would close and you stood zilch chance of success?

Andalucia alone is reported to have 300,000 – 400,000 illegal buildings although in 2011 Jose Grinan said that he was going to legalise them – probably not got round to it yet though, but if you have, I send you my sincere apologies Sr. Grinan. Bloomberg suggests that there are 1.2m illegal buildings in Spain – so I don’t think, even with your rose coloured specs on we can say that it’s an unusual practice.

As a property expert you surprise me with your statement ‘firstly by checking everything before they buy’. I was foolishly laboring under the assumption that I was paying my lawyers, lenders, and surveyors to protect me as qualified professionals and therefore would not need to become a graduate of Spanish law and qualify in both construction and high finance…….. Not to mention the necessity to be a fluent speaker of the language in order to understand the reams of paperwork that accompany each transaction.

Please do not take the foregoing response to your post personally as it is not intended to be so and being involved in the industry I have great respect for your profession.

Woodbug

I do love it when reality and perfection clash with each other. The game between Woodbug and Surveyor could go on forever, but I fear that Surveyor may be heading for defeat. I think this thread should be brought to a close with "here endeth the lesson"!!

Well said Woodbug.  I was going to reply but realised this guy doesn't really have a grasp of reality. Surveyor, please take in what Woodbug has said. These people who have lost their homes are not the foolish ones here, they have been taken in by "Professionals" they were naive enough to trust in. I'm luckier in that I have always double checked "professionals" work and found most lacking.  From trivial mistakes to things like posting net costings to clients so they can see our margins or worse. Even very clever architects make the most fundamental errors of judgement or even structural understanding.  And as for lawyers, despite having two in the family they are as bad as all the other professions put together. And then there's surveyors, always passing the buck.  “I would recommend you also employ”.....basically use someone else is usually how I finish their sentence for them. Of course none of us would describe politicians as professionals -pros yes but that's another joke.

Woodbug, I see you say Surveyor is a "Property professional".  Hmm, I used to own 54 properties and manage 400 more so maybe I could be described as a professional too but I'd rather not be as most of the people I've met in the last 15 years are either useless and annoying; bumbling and pleasant part timers or the sharks. I built 26 new homes myself and over 40 years must have worked on and refurbished probably a thousand homes.  When I left the bank (Mortgage and investment  manager) my first project was to build a pair of semis which effectively was the bed rock of my career - from little apples...in those days things did appear more "professional" than later years even though no estate agents had any qualifications so I don't even think your idea of qualifications would help.  When I branched out to the States everyone and his dog was certified or “diplomad” up to the neck but they were bigger sharks than back in blighty!  My own agency which I started while still employed full time at the bank was started through my contacts with solid, honest people and I employed a very knowledgeable local estate agent as manager; a guy who used to work in our bank as a mortgage specialist; a conveyancing specialist we stole from a firm of solicitors I had worked with for 3 years regularly so knew he was trustworthy and we incorporated an insurance office with a guy who knew more about insurance and which companies offered which rates and had a constantly changing library of tables and charts as there were no such things as office computers! The core strength was I knew these people personally beforehand and knew them to be honest and CONSCIENTIOUS I am sure there are people of that standing - honesty is as important as knowledge because a good honest person with a conscience will learn everything to uphold his reputation and standing - he would not allow a client to be ripped off...  but finding them all in one place is probably impossible.  And the trouble nowadays is everyone with an IQ over 5 has a degree and is literally too stupid to realise how stupid they are.

So they become arrogant and lazy and laziness and greediness go hand in hand. I'd like to add that in my simple task of looking for a single family villa near Marbella I have met some genuinely good people in Soto-Grande and Marbella but I have also been astonished at some others’ lack of understanding of laws and just not knowing their portfolio at all.  None of this is "Moaning" surveyor, it's just stating facts.  I'm sure you know yourself that there are a few excellent lawyers out there but if you don't acknowledge there are more bad and lazy ones then I guess you haven't used many.

Surveyor, you sound genuinely keen to help ensure people do not get hurt or ripped off by unscrupulous people which is good but also you should realise that sometimes the guts get knocked out of you when these things occur and it's also expensive to go emply one lawyer to chase another. I have always advocated mediation - usually in the very rare case I've been asked to mediate for people and it's just two parties, maybe a builder and their client I have found a deal can be struck but when you are a lone couple against a huge developer who in turn is blaming the local junta who are blaming the fascists in Madrid and all and sundry I can imagine it would be a daunting task.

I agree with most of what you say Manx. It's the individual who matters and unfortunately the con man practices 'faking sincerity' much more than the truly sincere adviser. As for recommending 'also employ' that's us being responsible and realising that there are specialist who know more about a certain matter than ourselves (and often are the ones getting paid to do that work and we are just pointing out to the client the questions that they didn't know to ask!)

So Surveyor, we are not really the moaners you claim we are. We are perhaps the realists who see Spain for what it really is - a country that has failed to move with the times, one that is not prepared to acknowledge rights and expectations that most of us in our own countries have tended to take for granted, and as a member of the EU, having taken as much as it can by way of funding, refuses to grant to those who have chosen to invest in their country normal legal rights.

Back of the net Viva - you are absolutely on the money! What worries me is the mentality of the Spain plutocracy that can’t see or more likely, don’t care about the irreparable damage they have inflicted on their own country and its people with their lazy incompetent and arrogant attitude to the problems they themselves have created.

There is not a snowball in hells chance of Spain coming out of this mess smiling, but a damage limitation exercise may help to soften the blow that is inevitable, by changing the laws to make it safe to invest in Spain and offer a worthwhile incentive to do so.

At the moment it is ‘caveat emptor’ with a heads or tails choice of losing everything.  My own view is that Brits should stop buying just as most others have in Spain and wait for property prices to find their own level by which time the cent might have dropped as well with the government.  Then and only then, will certain politicians and their cronies realise what everyone else has known for ages and act accordingly.

That is of course if they can find time in between their creative accounting activities and manufacturing diversions such as the Gibraltar issue to deflect attention from their self-centred actions.

These ‘bargains’ that the snatch-back banks and their ‘authorised’ agents are advertising are just the low quality end and most are still overpriced or come with a ‘story’ that is never mentioned in the advertising blurb.

A House price is what a buyer will pay and what the bank value is, as well as the percentage of their valuation they will loan to a buyer.  The asking price that the agent values it at and what the buyer wants is of no importance in today’s market.

Take no notice of the dozens of estate agents silly splash ads ‘massively reduced for quick sale’. Reduced to an artificially high level from a ridiculously artificial high level, they mean. 

For example, if a seller asks for, and an agent values a house at e200k and the bank see the property at e100k with a loan of 70% and the buyer can raise 30k then that’s the market price, especially if there is a similar property on the market locally, at a significantly lower sum than the asking price.

The days of a seller ‘sweating a deal’ are history and the eventual selling price may have to be a fraction of the e200k asked, if the Spanish economy fails to recover – but has it gone too far?

How many of the 'posters' here have actually complained to the authorities, even if just by letter or sumitted a formal denuncia? Many of them will be binned, but some will get to people who matter and add to the statistics of complaints. These Forums are all very well for exchanging information, but when its just a list of how bad things are without proposals for action, its a 'Moan'! And now I'm doing it!

In the UK it is relatively easy to obtain a Court Order. The hard part is enforcing that Order. In Spain there is the additional factor of uncertainty that there will be any realistic progress, and invariably one has to engage a lawyer. In the UK one can conduct proceedings without the need for lawyers or barristers, and the process is user friendly. Here in Spain the absolute opposite is true. Surveyor - you must have unlimited cash resources, or an unrealistic optimism for you to maintain such determination to take on the Spanish system. I really suggest for all reasonable and practical circumstances you are just whistling in the wind. Realism or reality - you have a choice!.