Will this incompetence ever end?

Two more examples of incompetent authorities:

Eight years ago the Hotel Algarrobico in Almeria was declared to be illegal and a demolition order was issued by the courts. Curiously the order was never acted on and now the Andalusian courts have reversed the decision and have just declared it ‘legal’ It goes without saying that the developers are now seeking massive compensation from the Government.

The SAREB ‘bad bank’ created by the Government to sell off loans and properties amassed by the negligent commercial banks, managed to lose 261million euro in 2013, Not a bad demonstration of financial incompetence, even by Spain’s standards, especially considering that 80% of the assets  SAREB hold are developer loans.

When will it ever end?

Sadly the complex we purchased & completed our Apartment in during 2008 is still waiting the Habitation Certificate, Many problems have risen since completeing ref the builder not completing due to stoping trading under the name he sold our apartment and many others problems in the complex. Our Administrator for the past 4 years has been unable to convince the authorities to allow the utility companies to complete an agreement and are forever finding some type of excuse.

Many of the owners are very frustrated and want to sell, just one family have sold and lost a huge sum by doing so. We all purchased through the correct channels Lawyer (several different), Banks. Agents and Notery. Few have huge loans and also have to pay €100 a month community fees to pay for the utilities and running costs.

The main problem is the incompetence of the local authorities, The builder is still building under another company name, Although the builder still own's many of the apartments he pays no community fee and has let his appartment to undesirables who also abuse the complex and pay NO community fees ( stealing the water & electricity the other owners pay for) The community purse has suffered because of the damage repairs over the last year the undesirables have been moved out yet still we are waiting for the Habitation Certificate.   

We all hope for good news but the years just go by, The Builder now owes so much unpaid community fees and debt of utilities during the building, the community will be in debt for years and the builder has not paid the debt of over €150k to complete the work he has not done. 

That story of Poedoe is unfortunately very common in Spain. The country is littered with property disasters. Yet the authorities remain unmoved. The agents and owners desparate to sell keep on selling and fail to warn anyone of the risks. Lawyers simply seek to fill up their bank accounts.

Every Spanish property should come with a health warning. Buyer beware buying a property in Spain can seriously damage your wealth..

In the absence of the Spanish authorities not adequately addressing property rights of this nature, it begs the question why are more of those affected not petitioning the EU and reporting this to Spanish MEP's and the European Commission as a classic example of the need for reform (Treaty change?) to ensure that property rights of EU citizens within and across EU member states are adequately protected?

This is not incompetence but malpractice... how can notaries turn a blind eye to the resale of properties that have no Habitation Licence?..... how can mortgages be given to properties that have no Habitation licence?...... Why should those compromised by non issuance of Habitation Licences not be entitled to compensation if RETROSPECTIVE changes relating to the legality of their properties/land have been enacted and blighted their properties in the process, through no fault of their own.

The EU have to wake up to the impact of these failings, not only on innocent citizens but also the knock on effect to the Spanish economy, especially as more and more people are recognising the continuing risks associated with property purchase in Spain. If Spain does not "self correct" then perhaps the question to ask is, should there be an EU mechanism in place to penalise the authorities for their failings, which would act as a great incentive to reform.

So how can properties be bought and sold  on Camposol with no problem? Nearly all the properties have no C of H , receive mains water and electricity, obtain house insurance etc., carry out extensions, alterations to properties etc.

It must be a legal lottery if one region turns a blind eye to lack of Habitation Licence and other regions chose otherwise. Which hardly inspires confidence in a system that can apparently cherry pick the law in this way.

Individual investors need to know that in the eyes of the law they are protected where required from malpractice within the conveyancing system, from developer or Banking abuse, from retrospective changes relating to the legality of their properties through no fault of their own, etc, and that this protection can be legally enforced in Spain within a fair and reasonable timeframe.

To many these are basic rights that the Spanish authorities must address if any semblance of individual investor confidence is to be restored.

Because of this problem I did contact many MEPs and the only one who replied was Marta Andreason, This amazing MEP did all she could by contacting & Meeting the Regional Governing body in Alicante. Meetings were recorded via video which are possibly still available. Marta tried her best to get something done, Sadly Marta Andreason was unable to get anything done because she did not have the backing from others in her position. 5 years have gone by since this & Atlas the International property agents have apeared again selling international Property. Atlas, The Lawyer & The Notary in Oriwella as well as the builder seem to be, or are all in league together, not controlled by the Spanish Government when collecting huge fees for malpractice. 8 years since completing our Spanish Purchase and still all the purchasers have to worry and pay €100 a month in Community fees, We do however now have a Live-in Caretaker on the complex at a cost to the owners who can use the apartments but have to pay again for temporary utility supply. This is not the dream Spanish home we all paid or are still paying for. I love our apartment but at the age of 71 & 72 now wonder how long & will we aver enjoy out lovely home in Spain.

For me it's like the "where does space end" question.  A few might have a theory or two, but there is no answer that I can understand.

I reckon Ads's reply is rather simplistic - the politicians are just not interested, there seems to be too few Marta Andreasons amongst them.  I know that UKIP have also been supportive in the past on these kind of issues, but this is also likely to be a sterile exercise.

I believe that as an individual you are wasting your time.  To have any impact you need to somehow gather all the ex-pat communities without HC's together and arrange some non-violent civil disobedience events to embarrass the Spanish into doing something.  Of course the Spanish authorities seem amazingly thick skinned so it would never be instantaneous success, but if there were enough people committed to a long term campaign you may win.  Perhaps a job for the summer?

Poedoe,

Your astute observation re MEP Marta Andreasen and the failure of EU Parliamentarians to address this issue of property rights is exactly why a carefully worded major petition should be launched and supported by all those affected, so long as the Spanish authorities refuse to address the problem.

Given the current focus on reform of the EU, perhaps Marta will now be in a better position to assist in this regard. Have you asked her if this major problem relating to property rights now forms part of her political party's priorities when seeking reform of the EU and where her party stands in this regard? More importantly are EU Parliamentarians unable to reform the status quo given the current legal treaty? Will this require treaty change? Which in itself then begs all manner of questions relating to the failures of the current treaty and how the EU Commission plan to tackle this problem.

I have mailed Marta Andreason and may have tyo wait for her reply as I have not contacted her for some time. hoppefully Marta will then be able to tell us if any action is viable. Many thanks for your reply XX

SADLY Marta Andreson lost her seat in the last by-election heat. Marta kindly answered the mail I sent very quickily. Who will take up our problem without chaarging fees.??

Sorry I thought it said Impotence need to go to SPEC SAVERS

Lol Hugh

If it's of any help here's the full list of MEP's by region.

http://www.europarl.org.uk/en/european_elections/results.html

Quite shocking to hear that Marta Andreasen will no longer be in a position to be proactive or provide advice from within the EU Parliament. It's not looking hopeful and only adds to the frustration of many who consider the EU is unable to effectively address property rights issues of this nature without treaty change.

So long as this remains the case then the only way forward is to whistle blow these realities at every opportunity, inform all MEP's of the realities, and raise the profile to forewarn individual investors..... and as acer has identified come together as a united group.

This thread seems to be in decline which is a pity and possibly a lost opportunity.  I was hoping that enough people would feel sufficiently incensed to agree some form of action.

To me it is both outrageous and unacceptable that the Spanish authorities continue this farcical practice.  But if all that happens is that a few people quietly talk about it and then do nothing it will no doubt continue.

I feel we need to find out why these different areas of the Spanish Government are allowed to treat property purchasers in this way. 2 different Administrators and three presidents have worked their socks off to get our complex granted with the HC, yet we still have to wait. 8 years is is a penalty no one needs. who can really help.

Do you have answers to the following (see immediately below in red)?

Without habitation licence in place will the owner now (since new arrangements relating to land registry) not be able to legally sell on their property nor will their heirs be able to legally inherit the title?

Also how can mortgages be provided on properties that are not registered in the Land registry? In the eyes of the law does the property in question have to be registered in the Land registry? Will this mean that Banks will no longer be able to provide mortgages on property that is not registered in the Land registry?

Aren't these grave risks that now blight existing owners of properties that have no habitation licences (through no fault of their own)?

Perhaps the question to ask all MEP's is therefore:

Is the lengthy "inactivity" by the authorities to grant habitation licences in contravention of European Law in some way, given the above?

Also Marta Andreasen identifed some time ago the following in red, so could this also be of assistance, so long as no compensation has been provided in "good time for your loss"?:

Could a brief and unemotive letter to Viviane Reding, Justice Commissioner at the European Commission (with assistance from an MEP), elicit a response perhaps? See http://europa.eu/whoiswho/public/index.cfm?fuseaction=idea.hierarchy&nodeID=275347&personID=29015

Article 17 of the Charter of Fundamental Rights of the European Union.

http://www.europarl.europa.eu/charter/pdf/text_en.pdf

Article 17

Right to property

1. Everyone has the right to own, use, dispose of and bequeath his or her lawfully acquired possessions. No one may be deprived of his or her possessions, except in the public interest and in the cases and under the conditions provided for by law, subject to fair compensation being paid in good time for their loss. The use of property may be regulated by law in so far as is necessary for the general interest.

After many years living in Spain I still can't understand how a lawyer can complete a property purchase on behalf of a client knowing that he has not undertaken 'due diligence'  and has completed and been paid for a conveyance knowing it is illegal. Even more alarming is the fact that there doesn't appear to be any claim mechanism against the lawyer for negligence or a professional body such as the law society to intervene in thse very common cases. Any qualified professional in UK acting for, or supplying services to a client must maintain a PI (Public Indemnity) assurance to compensate the victim for any wrong-doing, negligence or incompetence.Buying property in Spain is at worst a nighmare and at best a lottery it's akin to running a steeplechase having to clear all the fences with a good chance of falling at any of them. My own belief is that the massive problems connected with property ownership should be sorted out at government level. How on earth can this crazy government expect the huge housing stocks to reduce when investors and buyers know there is a good chance that there will be ongoing problems, some only time consuming and annoying tasks that lazy lawyers and untruthful agents created and others so serious that they will lose their investment or have it massively reduced in value as a result of deception and incompetence of national and local government departments.

I agree Woodbug, it is an absolute absurdity and can only think that the Spanish have just got used to it and just accept it as they don't know any different.

There is a "Law Society" body in Spain.  I've only had limited dealings, but not too impressed, possibly as my complaint to them to did not even get to first base.  It transpired that the "solicitor" who failed me miserably turned out not actually to be a qualified solicitor!  She was the principal of a firm that called themselves solicitors, but she was not a solicitor personally and therefore they were not interested in taking any action.

I was grateful for the posting by Ads and will be exploring the information provided and post further in due course.

Are the banks & finance companies in Spain the leaders of the Worlds greatest CON, to grant a Morgage on a property that has no Habitation Certificate must be criminal, to charge a fee as a lawyer to search a properties legality, The Notary to tell blatent lies when completing the sale/purchase of a property & leaving the borower in great debt when the property is not completed, or purchased on the morgage is not as legal it should be.

The lawyer, Notary, Bank and agent should be answerable to all these people that are suffering from this mal-administration. Is this the reason Spain is in such a mess, hundreds of legal pitfalls from these unprofessinal thugs that cause so much worry to purchasers. This leaves such a bitter taste on any property deals in Spain. The Law Society in Spain must be run by the same book.

Are we fools to want to spend our life savings on a place in the Sun and get such a mountain of worry in return. I am sure no other country would allow this to happen. We searched for 7 years before we found our purchase, We used A Spanish Lawyer & Agent now 8 years on and we are still not settled. Do we realy want to live in Spain after all this worry.