The Greek crisis

Whether you consider that the previous Greek Government’s failure to address the growing debt crisis or the unrealistic pension arrangements/ tax evasion/ asset stripping by the Greek elite etc that has accentuated the problems in Greece, there is still no need for humiliation and crippling austerity measures that impact so badly on a nation of people, without taking into full account the immoral actions by Banks and financial industries, whose corrupt practices and hidden self gratifying actions and failure to adhere to compliance/regulation have lead to such widespread devastating effects.

Do you not think that it beggars belief that Europe can turn a blind eye to the real consequences and suffering (both financial and emotional) that is occurring in Greece, and not be demanding that those financial institutions that hedged their bets against a system to fail, thus profiting from their hidden agendas, or failed to regulate/adequately monitor their corrupt practices on such a vast scale, be made accountable, and that monies be fairly apportioned/redistributed from these immoral institutions to assist the Greeks through this dire crisis?

Sorry for the rant! 

All the 'PIGS' nations acted like kids being given the key to the sweet shop on their admitance to the EU, however the Greeks insisted on keeping their old 'perks', such as pensionable retirement for public sector employees whilst still in their 40's.

No EU member is without sin with regard to recent events, I believe that the world banking crisis will serve to make us all stronger, if Greece refuses to conform to sensible EU edicts then their exit from the community would be no great loss. My desire is to see David Cameron free the UK from the excesses of the Brussels bureaucrats, after all a proportional representation political system would have given UKIP circa 80 parliamentary seats following the recent general election, failing him succeeding in this I fear that the only UK EU member will be Scotland, due to the strength of the SNP. 

There is currently a huge run on the Greek Banks, Zero Hedge article shows that in the last 7 business days 3.4 Billion Euros has left their Banks and I heard this has brought the total figure to approx. 100 Billion Euros. This is unsustainable and their Banks are close to broke. It's expected capital controls will have to be imposed very soon at this rate, there's an almighty dash with the cash. All of which will have repercussions throughout Europe. That money is going somewhere, into German, British and other Northern European Banks/safe countries' Banks quite likely.

IMO all that's been done is continual sticking plasters on the problem. If they can't or won't repay their debt it is being said Portugal might go the same way and say 'why should we repay our debt' and so on. 

It would have been less costly for Europe and Greece itself if the country had left the EU ages ago.

The world banking crisis will make us all stronger, agreed, but the questions remain, at what and whose cost and at what pace and under whose responsbile management structure?

Banks should be made accountable for their irresponsible, no make that GROSSLY negligent, action to effectively monitor and control the corrupt practices within their midst, illicit and manipulative practices that have resulted on a VAST scale of financial harm that we should never overlook in the “corrective processes” required to clean up this mess.

That does not mean that there should not be lessons learned from those who for whatever reason chose to ignore the consequences of non compliance with making adequate provision for their future lifestyle choices, or contributing to a fair taxable system where all benefit if managed well.

But neither should we ignore why people have been and continue to be wary and reticent to contribute to such “systems” if they do not ultimately trust those who are required to manage these financial provisions in a fair and equitable manner…. It’s not as black and white as some suggest.

We should never however overlook the personal suffering that ensues in the interim period of cleaning up this mess, which could be alleviated by a better managed, realistic timeframe. A timeframe that allows Governments and people alike to adjust to the realities and social responsibilities to retain a decent and basic lifestyle, but equally give them hope and realistic aspiration for their future lives.

The management of this complex mix has to be both effective and ethical......not an easy task by any means but please God those responsible in overseeing the clean up will find a civilised solution with due regard to people's livelihoods, both in the immediate and future timeframes.

I am not an expert in the ways of worldwide economics but what is happening across the globe now shows the full extent of the wrong doings of the human race and how we are greedy, selfish and full of corruption form the top all the way down to the bottom

Including sports, govts, banking, leaders, religion (just about any committee), and all the way down to cash in hand and tax evasion etc. etc. etc.

Where there is money we are a very selfish and self-centred race and we have never learnt from the history books.

The solution

Well for me it is simple and I have said this before focus should be on the basic needs of everyone:

1. Housing

2. Jobs

3. Health care

4. Education

 5. Welfare state that provides when needed

and add a few of life's small luxuries - a bit of R & R

How do we achieve this?

Well we can start by forcing banks / govts (or whoever holds the ticket for the loan) to write off all debt across the globe and start again with a common global policy and goal that benefits all equally.

Think about a joint approach and stop acting as individuals (personal, committee, village, town, city, county, country, continent etc.). We are all human beings and as I have said we all have the same basic needs.

We need to start working together whether you are at the top or at the bottom and stop fighting each other or trying to get one over your neighbour.

I am sure many will contradict this and come up with many reasons why we can’t (or shouldn’t) do this but this is just the mentality we need to get rid of

Remember 3 steps forward and 2 steps back is still progress

It seems to me that the only people who have suffered in this mess are the people who did not cause it, the bankers, politicians etc have not suffered at all in fact many are still raking in mega bucks at the peasants expense. There is enough money to go round and ensure all the services we need are well financed and efficient without the need for higher taxes but the greed, corruption, inefficiences etc still go on. When talking about the Greeks being reluctant to change their pension arrangements and so on lets not forget the almost tax free salaries and bumper pensions given to EU beaurocrats and indeed Christine Langard head of the IMF earns over 300,000e TAX FREE and she then has the nerve to complain about people dodging taxes. I have an answer but short of a revolution I don't think it will ever happen we are too complacent and too ready to accept the few scraps thrown at us by the 'elite'. I do believe the world is run by bankers, media moguls and big business, the politicians are just their puppets and the rest of us are just fodder.

Any suggestion that the problems in Greece were caused by bankers is naive and just shows a hatred of bankers. If the banks are guilty of anything it is allowing Greece to borrow too much and live beyond its means. 

The facts are simple. In general Greece and the Greek people have very similar working conditions, wages, holidays, pension and retirement arrangements as any other EU country. Examples cited about very early retirement are not the normal but of certain lines of employment. Lots of other countries have civil servants (police for example) that can retire at early ages. Greeks are not lazy and work some of the longest hours in Europe. So what went wrong?

The government could have spent less on the military although this was in itself used to bolster employment. The single biggest factor is that the Greeks tried to keep up with the Jones.  Or the Brauns.  They wanted the same lifestyle they saw other EU countries enjoying and failed to realise that whilst they were not spending a lot more that other EU countries on a per capita basis, their revenue was much lower.  They simply spent their way (on a national basis) into debt by borrowing money. I have no sympathy for them as I don't have sympathy for people in the UK that do the same. 

Bond holders and other creditors have already accepted cutting the debt roughly in half and allowed them to extend the payment terms to 30 years from the original 3 to 10 years.  

The Germans need to stop saying the Greeks are lazy tax dodgers. The Greeks need to accept that printing money and taking out loans to live the high life eventually comes at a cost.  If the Greeks think times are tough now and austerity is too painful, they only need to look at what happened to Argentina went they defaulted on their international debt in 2001.

Tadd1966, your suggestion that the solution is to just write off all debt across the globe is just weird.  If you write off all the debt you have to write off all the assets that were generated by the debt and I am not in the least interested in giving up my home, savings, pension or furnitureor anything else I scrimped and saved for over the last forty years so you or anyone else can walk away from their car loans etc.

perrypower

I see what you are saying but I am not necessarily talking about loans for cars or homes but more what the countries have borrowed and are owed - it is a big game they all play and a few people make a lot of money whilst many suffer

I think the BBC posted something sometime ago showing how much each country owed each other yet all that is in the media is the debt. Maybe it is all form different sources and assets but it is money and the profits are going to the wrong plac .

How can a few live in luxury whilst many cannot put decent food on the table.

I wonder what the food an drink bill wil be for the G7 meeting - they will wine and dine in luxury whilst many go hungry

I would gladly give up all my assets if every single human being on the planet had the same opportunites to live happily and comfortable and we all get a better and safer place to live without greed, corruption, war, fighting and selfishness.

A bit of Eutopia dreaming I agree but whilst  we all look after number 1 we simply promote / allow corruption and greed under the guise of self preservation

Poopyseed is quite right but without a complete global mentallity change it will remain the same until we destroy everything. The human race might wake up one day and change or some catastrophic event of nature (or if some nutter presses the big red button) will force us to change but I doubt it especially in our lifetime

For those interested see the following verdicts and make up your own minds... Its interesting to see the diversity of verdicts on corruption within the US banks as covered within the film " Inside Job ".

http://www.theguardian.com/film/2011/feb/17/inside-job-financial-crisis-bankers-verdicts

Also some youtube footage re the Global Financial meltdown which goes some way to identify how banking failures impacted across the globe.

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=VQzEWeGJLP0 ( but be warned this is about 2 hours long )

I watched Inside Job a long time ago, one of the most horryfying things was many of the creators of the crisis (which had it's seeds sown years ago) went on to prominent positions, including Greenspan who became head of the Federal Reserve, unbelievable and shocking. Some governments did overspend including the UK but the part the bankers played cannot and should not be understated and still they lie and manipulate, the Libor and Forex scams prove nothing much has changed.

It's arguable if any of the PIGS nations should have been allowed to enter the EU, maybe this is just a predule to similar problems with the eastern block members. Anyone who has any reservations about certain nation's ability to conduct themselves in a professional and honest manner is automatically labled a Eurosceptic. Charles de Gaulle would be spinning in his grave if he had sight of the current membership list, particularly that of the UK. 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-33209199

Greek debt talks: main sticking points

• Greece will not accept cuts to pension payments or public sector wages, saying two-thirds of pensioners are either below or near the poverty line
• International creditors want pension spending cut by 1% of GDP - it accounts for 16% of Greek GDP. They say their target is early retirement not individual pensions
• EU officials say Greece has agreed to budget surplus targets of 1% of GDP this year, followed by 2% in 2016 and 3.5% by 2018. Greece says nothing is agreed until everything is agreed
• Creditors also want a wider VAT base; Greece says it will not allow extra VAT on medicines or electricity bills
• Greece complains creditors focus on increasing taxes instead of cracking down on tax evasion; IMF is concerned Athens is not offering credible reforms

I wonder how long Greece will remain in the Euro,  days or weeks ?

So the Greek Prime Minister Alexis Tsipras has got the cajones to stand up against the oppressive, immoral and dishonest EU bully boys. It’s the EU that should be on trial not the Greek leaders. Greece  was the seat of learning that gave the world Olympia, Democracy, The Hippocratic Oath, Philosophy, Architecture, Theatre & Literary Classics and all the EU has given us is a shed-load of duplicitous laws designed to benefit one country more than another and to hell with the struggling population of them all.

Although the EU pretend not to care about a Grexit it would seriously rock their luxury yacht and signal the possibility of an EU break-up if Greece depart the glee-club. Mr. Tsipras is showing courage and leadership by refusing to allow his people to be pushed around any longer by those greedy underhand autocrats that run the oppressive ‘union’.

Wouldn’t it be refreshing to see David Cameron discovering his spine by taking this opportunity to stand up to them as well, instead of behaving like the sniveling coward he is around certain EU leaders by trying to get a few watered-down concessions so he doesn’t have to have a referendum?

The EU is wholly out of control and anyone who has had business dealing within the EU will understand the need for change and the need to curb their draconian powers – not to mention the removal of idiotic laws that have never been agreed in a democratic manner – Yes, democratic, see line three above!

That's a very interesting summary Woodbug, I agree that curing the disease negates the need to cure the diseased. However Greece is never going to get fellow EU members to be ecstatic about working until they drop in order to allow Greeks to retire at age 50. Bare in mind Cameron has a tiny majority and leads a party with it's fair share of europhiles, so he can't afford to go in like a bull in a china shop.  

Well Heph,  the issue of retirement is in my view not a matter for EU consideration as the retirement system is not conducted nor is it controlled by the EU. If this were the case why do Brits have to work longer than other member nations and why are some pensioners in Spain, who had low paid jobs obliged to continue working in order to supplement their meagre state pensions and yet still have to pay NI contributions to the Spanish government for the privilege? If the EU is the fair and utopian society that many brainwashed supporters claim it is, why aren’t they looking at the other end of the scale from the Greek demands?

The EU is simply unfair, unmanageable and unreasonable. The frivolous, anomalous legislation forever pouring from the seat of power is rarely enforceable in any one member state.  As an example there are no EU VAT laws – every country has its own rules and woe betide a trader who gets it wrong.

The construction Eurocodes took 38 years to produce and each country could add its own local amendments. Result? The code is abused by many countries and barely exists in others – a massive waste of money, but it provided hundreds of committee jobs for the rich and titled over the years.

The image of ‘Old Boiled Ham Face’ Cameron being likened to a ‘Bull in a China Shop’ is hilarious – perhaps a Child in a Play-dough factory might be nearer the mark when he is really angry!

Woodbug, the UK is commited to a referendum whatever concesions Cameron may or may not win. He hopes to win enough to convince the electorate to vote to stay in Europe. The latest opinion poll ( if you believe them) seems to indicate that he would win the vote to stay in. Whatever, it sems only right that younger voters get the chance to choose now that it's a very different beast than the one we originally signed up for.

Greece may have to leave the euro as Germany and others are fed up with keeping it afloat.

GB45, I don't think that Greece will be on their own, Cameron is fairly confident that he will win a 'stay in' vote, perhaps if he had ordered the invasion of a foreign state and was responsible for a plethora of deaths he would have more street cred. This is not about whether you're a Cameron/Tory hater or not, it's not even about national pride, this is about common sense, something that is in very short supply in Brussels and The Hague. 

What are your thoughts on Greece's complaint which suggests that the focus from international creditors should not be on greater taxes but on the issue of tax evasion ...... Is this not a valid concern?

ads, my answer is, only if Greece is without sin, they spend more than they earn, borrow to fund this and then don't pay back their debts, they are bankrupt and are in total denial of this indisputable fact.